KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

Okay, so it’s recording.  So can you say your name and spell it, please?
[anon].  
Okay.  Trying to do English to Dutch vowels.
Yes, definitely.
And you have signed the consent form, is that correct?
Yes, I have.
Yes, cool.  Okay, so we’re going to be sort of asking you questions mostly mixed between the developer and the player questions, but probably focusing mostly on the developer ones.  So, what is it you do in video games?
I’m a student of game design, mostly focusing on narrative design right now, and I play a bunch of them.
Okay, and how long have you been a games designer?
A games designer?  I think I really got into it the last two years.  Before that I really – didn’t really spend time on developing them, but mostly think of cool storylines and characters.
Okay, and how long have you been playing games?
Playing games, ever since I was maybe six.
So—?
And I’m 27 now, so…
21 years playing games.
Yeah, a pretty long time.
That’ll do.  That’s good enough, yeah.  When – when you sort of think about the games you – you enjoy, what – what’s the most significant element of them for you?
I think the most important aspect of a game is the role playing aspect for me, so I’m a huge fan of The Witcher, Mass Effect and Zelda.  I need to identify with a character or be invested in his or her story.  Fantasy plays an aspect, but mostly relations.  Yeah, and evolving a story going through.
And is that something that you want to do as – as a developer yourself?
It was my number-one motivation, I think, for get – for getting into the industry, so to speak.  I wanted to create worlds which I could also personally enjoy, that were compelling and told a story and were – I – would be able to engage a player into this fiction I made, like a fantasy fiction made – made tangible.
Okay.  Do you think you share that interest with – with a lot of the people who make games, are they quite different?
I think everyone – mostly everyone will enjoy a nice story, but I think it might be a bit different because some people focus on mechanics, mechanics in – in – in video games and other way – others might focus on just silly fun, so I do think everyone has their own particular area of interest.
And among the people who play games, how do you – how would you characterise those people in general?
So purely players?
Yeah.
I’d say there are a lot of people who play purely for the social aspect.  They want to have fun with their friends and they don’t really care what kind of game it is as long as they’re – they’re able to pick it up and play some matches with their friends.  Then I categorise another group into being more hard-core gamers, maybe spend like a lot of time on it or regularly play games, maybe online.  Those are the player that maybe – that they – they spend more time actually  mastering the game, get – getting good at it.  And of course there are also more casual gamers, maybe more interested in like a nice story or puzzle games.
Yeah.  So, obviously you’ve been playing games for quite a long time.  How do you think games are changing how people use their leisure time?
I think in the past people freely spent their leisure time doing whatever they liked, be it music or reading or books.  I think it’s now only being swapped for video games, so rather than pick up a book, people may be more inclined to instead play a video game for a couple of hours.  There are like tons of topics in media that it might be more addictive, but I don’t really have a personal opinion on that.  I think it’s all a bit like in the – the early years and every – everything that’s new is scary, so…
Yeah.  Do – do you think there are positive and negative impacts in the way that games are taking over from other media?
Well, there are definitely positive aspects.  I know for a lot of people and also research has shown that it can be really beneficial for language acquisition.  I also know that it helped me learn English a lot when I was younger, so I think that’s definitely a positive aspect.  It helps a lot of people get out of their depression.  When they – when they felt lonely they could play World of Warcraft with their friends online, so to speak.  The – the loners might find more of a – a group online than they do in real life.  And negative aspects, I guess it could have a tendency to kind of seclude yourself physically, but then again like the positive thing is that you might connect with people online, so I’m not sure what the – what the net benefit or loss of that would be.
Do you play online much?
Yeah, I do.  I’ve played World of Warcraft for over ten years and I play Overwatch every once in a while, like a couple of matches and, yeah, I think I – I spend a lot of time online as well.
Why World of Warcraft?  What – what appeals to you about that game?
To be fair, it’s really very stereotypical, but I saw the beautiful night elf on the cover and in a trailer and I was like, “I want to be that character.  I want to be a cool hunter,” or whatever.  So, yeah, just – just escaping from what’s – what’s normal and what’s boring and mundane and just being someone really cool in the game and being able to wield magic and – or have a cool pet, you know.  It’s all make believe.
Do – when – when you’re playing, do you kind of do the role play as the – as the character or is it much more everyday world sort of interaction?  Is it a normal – normal everyday interaction as – as you would have in – in – with a physical person maybe?
Yeah, it’s mostly normal everyday interactions, so I don’t really do the RP aspect that much, but I just kind of like, yeah, it sounds stupid, like dressing up my character and like when I’m playing, I’m not really pretending to be here, but it just feels nice to have a vessel like that that is like appealing and attractive and looks cool, and it’s a nice avatar – avatar to like interact with other people through that means, so to speak.
Okay.  Do you have any thoughts about serious and applied games?  You – you know – you know the term, serious and applied games?
Uh-huh.
What – what do you think of them in general?
What I think of them in general is that they are very promising.  I did an internship at a serious gaming company, so I might be a bit biased.  What I’ve learnt from that is that usually serious games have a lot of good intentions, but it’s pretty hard to actually deliver on those sometimes because either the game is fun or it isn’t and you need to sacrifice either the learning aspect or the fun aspect in order to make a really compelling serious game.  And I think a lot of studios might not have an actual game designer on their team.  It’s usually the – the – the client who wants to see a certain game and then you try to make it, so I think – but I think that can all be solved when it matures a bit.
So, that’s interesting you mentioned clients there, so – so a lot of serious games are work for hire in – in –
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.  Hmm, trying to think of a good follow-up there.  I’ll stick – stick with that as well.  So, we have a – have a – a – a phrase here, which is games are powerful tools to change behaviours and attitudes for the better.  Do you agree with this statement?  So, games are powerful tools to change behaviours and attitudes for the better.
I do, I really do, and I think we see that a lot nowadays with people using apps for like behavioural change.  There are lots of apps, like SuperBetter and all that kind of stuff, like drink your daily glass of water and you get a point, and for some people that can be really engaging.  So, yes, I – I agree.
Yeah, and it’s interesting you mentioned SuperBetter because that’s one of the – it’s made by games developers.  Jane – I mean Jane McGonigal has spent a lot of time with games developers.
Yeah.
And I – and also I think that’s a commercially – certainly commercially available, so you could buy it, rather than being a free one.
And she wrote a book about it.
She did.  I think she wrote – I think she wrote the book before she made the game actually.
Really?  Oh.
Yeah, I think so.  It’s based on her – based on her research.  There you go.  But, yes, Jane – Jane McGonigal is very good at that.  So, do you think there are – could – could it go the other way that games be powerful tools to change attitudes and behaviours for the worst?
Well I guess it’s a logical conclusion.  I mean TV and media can already influence your behaviour in a very good or positive way; it’s just a matter of which it is framed.  And we already like learn a lot about current events through a lens that the media kind of like gives you.  So if you use that tool in games which are really compelling and motivating, you could maybe even make an even stronger effect, I guess.
Do you think that entertainment, because obviously we – you – you’ve spoken a lot about SuperBetter there, which is an – an applied game.  Do you think that entertainment games and art games have these impacts, positive or negative on people?
Uh-huh, definitely.  I mean sometimes when I go to watch a movie, it leaves me with something I’ve learnt or learnt about myself or the way I look at things, and that’s an entertainment movie, but even entertainment has a message.  I mean there’s always a moral of a story and every book has like a – a lesson you could take from it, and I think for games it’s the same.
Okay.  Do you think games have affected you in any way?
Well, yeah, I want to work in games I guess and that’s because I – I – I love them so much.  And I spend a lot of time playing them.  Yeah, I – have they – but have they – have they affected me, like in a way differently than it would have if I didn’t play them, you mean?  Gosh, I don’t know.  I do know that they’ve given me like a really nice pastime way of just, you know, enjoying myself and learning about things, so…
There’s a – there’s a – a documentary maker in America called Matt Baum, and he’s been going around America interviewing people from queer communities about games that have influenced their lives and the—
Oh, right.
And so as – as role playing games and stuff like that and then talk – ask – asking people like what – what – “What games have – what moments in games have been important to you?”
Actually, now that you mention it, I was playing Bloodborne and I’m also currently struggling a bit with coping with my day-to-day life, chronic stresses and stuff, and sometimes it’s really easy to give up or just be hard on yourself.  So I was playing Bloodborne, which is really punishing, which usually doesn’t really help me in real life, but it actually helped me like persevering and killing a boss which you’ve been stuck on for hours, right, and in doing it gives you so much satisfaction that I kind of felt like, “Hey, if I can do this, maybe I could also tackle the issue in real life and maybe get that same kind of enjoyment and motivation.”  So I think things like that could help.
But also for queer issues, I mean a lot of women are now positively portrayed in – in games, like Lara Croft was one of my idols when I was younger and I was like, “I want to be tough like her.”  So it might have had more of an influence on me than I initially thought.
Yeah, it’s one of those things I think media is one of those, as you say, it – it’s so pervasive…
Yeah.
…that it’s – it’s hard to sometimes step outside and go, “What did that – what did that game mean to me?”
Yeah, yeah, you take it for granted maybe and you don’t really notice the effects it has on you.
Well, that’s why we need to research it more (laughs).
Right (laughs).
What do you think are kind of characteristic mechanisms of games?  What makes games good or compelling?  Is there anything that hooks you or hooks people, do you think?  What – what – what makes them work?
I think one of the main aspects of games for be it either sports or games or chess, whatever, is challenge.  So we all like to challenge ourselves and win preferably, or lose, but then, you know, if it’s a really compelling match then sure.  So I think that is a huge aspect.  And just losing yourself in the game, so you – if you’re playing chess you want to get in the mind set of that strategic thinking and planning and what will my opponent do next and stuff, and I think in a video game you also have that same sense of losing yourself for a moment and being within that game.
So kind of one of the – the things about it is almost – it’s escapism, a complex—
Yeah, that’s also an aspect.
Yeah, kind of the – the – the complexity of the system…
Yeah.
…lets you think just about that.
Yeah.
Okay.  Do you think – do you think there are many sort of mechanics differences or design differences or strategies that between the entertainment and art side and the serious and applied side, or do you think they’re – they’re a lot closer?
Well, I guess they all have mechanics and stuff that makes the game, but I do think there’s more of a focus on accessibility in serious gaming and maybe art games compared to just entertainment games, because usually for an entertainment – but not entirely true because I wanted to say for an entertainment game you usually have a target audience which can probably play games relatively well, for most cases.  But of course for serious games you also have a target audience.  So if you make a game for people who work at Shell then people who don’t work at Shell maybe won’t really understand all the – all the terms that are used and – sorry, what was the question again (laughs)?
It was – it was really are – do you think there are differences between the way that entertainment and serious games are made?  Generic now.
I’m not sure, but I feel like serious games might – might also focus more on short-term sessions, so you want to train something but you don’t really want your employees to work on a game – well, play a game for eight hours a day, whereas like if you make an RPG, it’s – that’s okay; it’s kind of what you want, for people to be immersed in it.
Yeah.
So there are differences.
Okay.  Do you think there’s some things that couldn’t translate from one domain to the other?  So, for example, there’s – there’s – there’s frequently violent or conflict sort of themes in – in entertainment stuff.  Do you think those would work in serious – serious and applied games or is there…
Yeah.
…a reason for it to not be there?
No, I think it could work.  I know there are some of those flash games online that kind of raise awareness for wars and stuff and then you need to control a drone and strike a certain target, but then you also kill civilians, blah, blah, blah.  And I think even though it might be in bad taste, I – I’m not sure, but I do think it has a really huge impact, and that’s kind of also what you want with serious games because you want to teach people something.  So if you use emotional means then it could be fair.
Yeah.  So, there’s kind of similar psychological mechanisms on the – on the – both?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, okay.  Has gaming led you to reflect in some way on yourself and – and what you do in your life?
Well, like the Bloodborne example…
Yeah.
…is – is – is one of them.  I also had that with World – World of Warcraft.  I was kind of a – when I was a teenager I just wanted to be invisible and disappear, like everyone may – probably does, but in game in was – I had kind of like a leadership role within my guild of 40 people, and it also, I don’t know, it – it reflected one my – me – how it made me reflect on myself is that, yeah, again, I could do more than I tried in real life just because it was scary, so it just helped me set my mind more at least, like, “Hey, it’s okay if, you know, if I struggle with this because I do know that I can – I can do these things, I just need to gain the confidence and stuff.”
Cool.  So, let’s talk about game development from your perspective.  What – what do you think are the main pressures or – that sort of shape the job of being a games developer?
The main pressure?  Well, aside from the scope always and production-related things, the – the main motivation is always to make like a fun game, I guess, that’s one of the pressures.  It needs to be fun and it needs to be compelling.  So you always try to like work towards that goal and I’m not sure – I’m not sure if a game should always be fun; it can also be sad or, you know, depressing at times.  I mean Spec Ops was really depressing, but it was also challenging, so maybe that keep – kept people hooked.
And regarding social issues, I think there’s also a lot of pressure to be PC nowadays because that’s like a relevant topic.  And a lot of people have different ideas what that should entail so, yeah, I don’t know.
In the workplace, do you think there are stresses on time or moving around between companies or things like that?
Yeah, I haven’t moved between companies so I – I wouldn’t know, but definitely stress regarding being on time.  So if you have an idea you always need to – need to check with everyone and you probably hear, “It’s out of scope,” or, “We can’t do this because the – the artists are way too busy.”  So personally I struggle now with finding – finding something I can actually implement that does not take up extra resources and it’s limiting me, but it’s also challenging, so I try to see it as a positive thing.
Do you – do you think that – that desire to always make it the best is – is kind of part of what’s called kind of crunch?  Have you had experience of crunch even on the projects here?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  I guess crunch is kind of a part of the game industry because I’ve seen it also with friends who work in the industry and some people crunch for a year and others, thank God, only do it for a couple of weeks.  And it’s very socially expected that you do it.  If you don’t do it, you’re kind of the lazy bum so you do feel pressured to do it.  And it was even so bad for me that I stopped taking medication I took, which – which caused me to – like that – that medication gave me side effects of being tired and I was like, “Well, this week I really need to finish this or my team is going to be really mad at me because I feel shit-tons of pressure, so maybe I’ll just skip it one day so I can…” you know, and that was the moment when I thought, “Oh, damn, this is an issue.”  Either I need to speak up or just, you know…
Yeah.
…lots of social pressure.
That’s pretty serious (laughs).
Yeah, yeah, I know.
So you mentioned kind of political correctness a little bit there.
Yeah.
While working on games, do you recall intentionally addressing issues such as gender, minority representation, political culture or other serious or socially educational topics in your work?
Uh-huh, well, the – the weird thing is even though I’m a woman and I identify as such, I usually – when I just make a character for like a – a fun game, whatever, I think of a man, so when I try to like tackle that thing, like is it – is it because it’s normal or should I just make it a female, it feels kind of forced.  So what I usually do is try to make it a – a neutral character, so gender neutral that everyone could play it.  So first person games would be perfect for that because then you can’t see your avatar.  So, yeah, I do try to – to tackle the issue, but I don’t wanna focus too much on represent – representing women or other minorities because I feel like if I focus on it too much it might become forced and not flow naturally any more.
Fair enough.  So sort of one of the changes that you’ve done is to try and make it more gender-neutral and just let people read them—
Yeah.
Read themselves into that.  Have you ever deliberately been antisocial in any of the themes of your games?
Antisocial, so—?
So – so if we were to say political correctness and sort of social responsibility is encouraging gender awareness or minority representation or anything like that, have you – have you deliberately chosen to make a game that was not like that?
Yeah, like in the – the current game, I was thinking of maybe putting in some stereotypes, because stereotypes can be funny because they’re – people can relate to it.  So that’s kind of going against the PC thing.
But it is a game about satire of – of – of…
Exactly.
…office places, so…
So then you can do it.
Yes.
Like sex – sexism was a huge thing in the ‘60s…
Yeah.
…so I figured maybe I can do something with that, not make it okay…
Yeah.
…but kind of refer to it, like this – this was the time where this was – this behaviour was okay and – yeah.
It doesn’t sound quite like being antisocial.  That’s – that’s – that’s—
That’s more upsetting, yeah.
Yeah, it’s – it’s highlighting other antisocial things in some ways.
In my – in my personal storylines, which I hope to make into a game one day, there is a lot of antisocial stuff, like abusive relationships or people conforming to their gender norms and it not working out for them because I think that sometimes you should just show things like – like they are at times, you know.  You don’t always have to pretend it’s not there.
Do you – do you notice these topics coming up in games that you play much, or is it something that you – you don’t really pay attention to?
Well, I’ve played a lot of games that have like bikini armour, so to speak, and while it doesn’t personally bother me because I see plenty of men being sexualised in games as well, it does – it does trigger your mind into thinking, like, “Hey, why is this okay?” or, “Is this – should we do this or is it a bit too much?”  Yeah.
Was – was the night elf on the front cover of – of World of Warcraft wearing bikini armour?
Yeah, probably bikini armour (laughs).
Yeah (laughs).  So that’s interesting, isn’t it, that like there is this thing that – that we see characters that we want to be like and sometimes they are conforming to standards that…
Yeah.
So there’s – there’s – there’s an appeal of these characters even though that we know that they’re not necessarily something that we…
Yeah. 
Yeah.
And Lara Croft as well, I mean her current version is very, well, neutral, I guess, like for a female she just looks like a – an average girl.
A believable person, yeah.
Believable person, but in ’96 she was – you know, she had like huge – a huge bosom and stuff and – but I found that – that appealing because I – I kind of – well not identified but I – I just saw this person who was like not sexualised, but she was sexy, she was powerful, so she was basically everything you want to be if you’re a woman.  That was my thinking at the time.
Clue into – into life, men want to be sexy and powerful as well.
Yeah, definitely.
That’s – I mean that’s, I suppose, one of the interesting things is that – that games often deal with aspects of sexuality and sexualisation of women quite obviously and I think the sexualisation of men, which is still there, is not dealt in within such a conscious way almost.  There – there – they say, “Does a woman have to look sexy in a game?  Yes, she does.”
Yeah.
“Does the man have to look sexy in a game?”  You’re like, “Well, he’s very strong.  Is that what you mean?”  It—
Well, they’re usually muscular.
Yes.
And I think for men it’s also kind of their personality, so you want them to be tough, so it’s not really that visual maybe, but I mean if you look at Nathan Drake, I mean he’s very well built…
Yeah.
…so he might not be sexualised because he does have like normal clothing and, you know, and Gears of War, the men there are incredibly sexualised.  Even though they don’t show skin, they have huge muscles and everything that’s male about them is exaggerated, so…
Yeah, it’s very sort of hyper-masculine…
Yeah.
…kind of way of doing it.  And I think the women have kind of crop top armour on in that game as well.
Oh, yeah, definitely, yeah.
Yeah, it’s just like, yes, that – that doesn’t make any sense.
(laughs)
Where do you think games are going in the future?  What sort of things are gonna be – if we look at games in ten years’ time, do you think there are gonna be big trends there or things that are very different to how we see games now?
Well like obviously the – the PC thing and the social issues will probably be very relevant in the coming ten years because we are also becoming more diverse, so maybe we’ll see more trans characters in video games.  That would be cool.  But other than that, like other than social issues, I’m not really sure.  VR will probably be – be popular if it keeps on continuing like this, or like the HoloLens augmented reality might – might be a thing.  But I find it, yeah, otherwise difficult to predict where we’ll go.
The – you – you mentioned earlier about serious games having kind of this balance between learning and fun.
Yeah.
Do you think – and – and that’s kind of what stops them from being as engaging quite often as – as an entertainment game.  Do you think that balance is going to stay the same so there’s a very strong split still or—?
Yeah, no, that would actually be really great if serious game companies considered more of the design aspects in a game, like what – we’ll make our game fun so that people actually like playing our – our thing.  Yeah, I think if – if you merge those areas more you will be more effective, so that would be a great thing to see. 
Okay.  Have – have you ever had any – any tries with things like augmented reality?
Augmented?  Yeah, I – I have but it was a couple of years ago so it wasn’t very – very compelling.  And Pokémon Go as well, so…
Yeah, what do you think of Pokémon Go?
It was really cool when I started playing it, but it quickly lost its touch.
Why do you think that is?
I guess I just kind of felt the grind, and after a while you just kind of – I don’t know, it’s really weird.  On the one hand it motivated me to go outside, and on the other hand I was like, “Yeah, but I’m outside now and I’m not even looking at the trees; I’m looking at stuff I can catch.”  So it was just a nice mo – motivator for that initial going out of the house, but once you’re there it’s kind of like, “Okay, I – I get it now and now I’m enjoying what’s – what’s real and what’s here.”  And it wasn’t fun enough to actually keep on doing it, but it’s weird.
Have you – have you used kind of any other apps that are sort of exercise-based or anything like that, or other motivational apps?
Let’s see, other motivational apps.  Yeah, this sleeping app.  I forgot the name, but it helped me – it helped give me reminders and it tracked your – your – your sleeping data over the night, and I found that actually really motivating, so I don’t even want to hear good job, I just want to see data.  I just want to see like you – you’ve had a 98% effective sleep because, I don’t know, maybe because I put the window open, I don’t know.  I felt like – I feel like purely information can be much more motivating than the standard message, like, “Good job, you did it,” or – so things like that actually managed to keep me going a bit longer.
You mentioned go – it goes on a bit longer.  Is that sort of implying that you’ve stopped using quite a few of these things?
Oh, always, almost always.  But even with games I mean after a while I just lose my interest and I stop playing them, either because something new came out, which is more interesting to me at that time, or because I kind of saw everything I needed to see and I kind of got – yeah, got all my enjoyment’s worth out of it.  Yeah.
Yeah, it’s an interesting thing.  Obviously games – you know, people kind of go, “Oh, I – I only played it for – for – for ten hours and then I’m done with it,” and you kind of go, “Well, you can read a book in ten hours and then you’re done with it.”
Right.
And it – and in – in books it doesn’t seem like such a bad thing.  You’ve got – you – you – you don’t think about how long it took you to read it as – as a metric of that book being good.
Oh, definitely.  That’s so true.  Like usually if you talked to like a book – a book reader, they’ll tell you like, “Yeah, I read all of it in one night.  I didn’t get any sleep.”  So they don’t really talk about hours but more like how quickly they – they – they read it.  And I think for video game players they’ll – they’ll be like, “Yeah, I played like 20 hours the first two days.  It was amazing,” and…
Yeah, it’s interesting that we – that hours seem to be more important to games people.
Yeah, for some reason, maybe because of the high price of a game, so you kind of want to justify it to yourself.
True, but books are – are – a lot of games are €10 now, €5 or something like that…
Sure, yeah.
…so they’re the same sort of price as books now as well.
Sure.  Maybe it’s because we want to justify the use of it because it’s still not super-accepted?  I don’t know, like if – I – I still remember throughout the years, if I told people I – I played games, usually fam – family members or older people didn’t understand so you felt the need to justify, and they probably thought you were addicted to it.  So – or – yeah, all – all the – all the money you spent on it, you know, so you just – I guess that’s why we kind of look at the metrics like that, I don’t know.
The – it’s interesting you mentioned about kind of the social respect for the medium.  Do you think society approves of video games at the moment?
Well, it’s – it’s a bit – it’s like a two-sided coin, although coins are always two-sided, but so on the – on the one hand we do because we proudly tell stuff on – on the – on the news, like the Dutch game industry made this much money this year and it’s amazing and Horizon was a big hit and blah, blah, blah, blah, but then ten minutes later you get this person on the radio who’s like, “Yeah, but it could actually motivate people to just stay inside all day and do we want players to – to – to spend ten hours a day playing it?”  So I think it’s still like we might think they’re okay, but so many people still have their reservations about it.
Do you think that’s gonna change much in the next ten years?
I think so.  I mean if I have to believe my parents, rock and roll was devil music when it came out and now we’re all like, “Oh, that’s just old people music,” I don’t know, you know.  So it’ll – it’ll probably change.  Like every new media is scary at first and then it just normalise – it normalises.
Okay.  I think that’s probably a good point to end that up.  Thank you very much for the interview.
You’re welcome.
Thank you.