KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

So, the recording is now going.  Cool.  Could you please say your name and spell it for the recording, please?
[anon].
Okay.  And could you just say for the recording that you have signed the agreement, please?
I have signed the agreement, yes.
The consent form, yes.
Consent form, yeah.
Yeah, cool.  Thank you.  
Right, so I'll be asking you the questions in your role as a games developer and just talking a little bit about the history of what you've done, what you do now, and a few different topics related to this research programme, Gaming Horizons.  So what do you do at the moment?
I teach at [ANON] at the moment, arts subjects.
Okay.  And what bits of the arts subjects do you teach?
Foundational modelling, texturing, 2D, 3D, that sort of stuff to the art students.  So it can be 2D related, all the way from drawing through to digital, and 3D models and stuff like that.
Yeah.  And these are 3D models for use in video games?
For use in video games, yeah.
Yeah.  And would you characterise those video games as being mostly for entertainment and leisure play, or for serious or educational purposes?
I would say mostly entertainment, leisure play stuff.
Okay.  And before you came here, what sorts of things were you doing?
I worked in the games industry as well, doing 2D and 3D artwork for a few different companies on a few different games, all entertainment stuff.  Nothing serious or anything like that.
Okay.  And how long were you doing that?
About seven or eight years, something like that.
Okay.  Seven or eight years, okay.  
Yeah, something like that.
And what was your job title in those places?
World Builder, I suppose would be a typical title for it, but I ended up doing all sorts of things, like concepts and things like that as well.  Bits of all sorts.
Okay.  So, concept art, but mostly the 3D environments?
Yeah, pretty much.  Pretty much, yeah.
Yeah.  Character art animation?
No, no, but I did do other animation before that, the classical sort of stuff.  So I teach some animation here, principles and things like that.
Yeah.  Would you say there were certain types of environments or certain cultures those environments came from, or was it a really broad spectrum you did?
Cultural, as in the groups of people I would work with or—?
Oh no, I mean as in the things that you made.
Things that I made.  Gosh.  Fighters (laughs), cartoon-y to realistic-y.  Yeah, a mix of all sorts of things really, I suppose.  But just for fun, fun stuff.
Yeah, okay.  So how did you get into that?  Were you trained in that kind of work?
Well, I have a fine art background and then I did classical animation and I did some 2D classical animation in Dublin.  I worked for a company there and then I thought, hmm, computers, and I just ended up in a job in (laughs) England after that.
It's how it goes, really.
Yeah (laughs) pretty much.
Would you say that that way of getting into the industry is fairly typical?
I'd say it certainly was then.  I don't know about now.  I mean, I don't think there was even a course, for example, in Ireland at the time, like we have here.  It was just dip your toe in and see what happens, kind of a thing.  It exists now, I think, but not back then.
Yeah.  So for the sake of the recording, you are from Ireland?
I am, yes (laughs).
Yes (laughs).  Would you say there's a particular type of person who gets into the games industry?  Any sort of particular common attitudes or behaviours or thoughts?
No.  Actually, it's quite surprising the broad range of people, types of personalities and characters that I've met.  I would say there is a geeky element that can rise (laughs) or can be present.  There's a certain pedantic element to a bunch of people as well.  But generally speaking, people are fairly flexible and open and fun.  They enjoy a bit of a laugh (laughs) in whatever's happening, enjoy a bit of chaos, I think (laughs).
(Laughs) Pedantic, I suppose that's another way of saying detail focused.
Yes, a little, and wanting you to know it (laughs).
Yes (laughs).  Yeah, there's definitely that.  What do you think of the people who play games?  Do you think there are particular types of people who play games in general, or do you think it's more broad than that?
To be honest, I wouldn't know.  I suppose it would depend on the range of games that are available or what's being made and stuff, according to whether they're finding their audience or creating an audience or whatever.  So I wouldn't know really, exactly.  I would just think mostly a younger bunch just having a lark and stuck at a PlayStation or something (laughs) for twenty-four hours solid.  But I'm surrounded by students, and that's what they're like, so that's the impression I'm getting of gamers.  But other than that, I don't hang out with gamers or anything.
Would you say that's something that—?  Actually, there are two questions there, I suppose, isn't there?
Yeah, okay.
I suppose one of them is, would you say that—?  Oh actually, let's go to the second one, which is, you don't play many games yourself, or any games?
The odd thing I'll pick up, maybe something just on the iPad or something like that, or some PlayStation at home, but I don't dedicate time to it or anything like that.
So is that a couple of hours a week or a couple of hours a month?
A year maybe (laughs).  I just like making stuff and making art.  I don't really care about the whole thing of games really.  It could be TV.  It could be film.  It could be games.  It's just making stuff.  That's what I like to do, so that's it.
Yeah.  Would you say that that interest in just making stuff – because we've spoken to quite a few designers where they have a fairly complex look at who their target audience is, generally – would you say that from the 3D art side of it, it's quite different?  It is more focused on just what assets are needed?
Yeah, yeah.  I mean, the places I've worked through time, a lot of the people in the art section or department didn't play much at all.  A few people were into it, but that was it.  Even leads and art directors and things like that, it would be, just make it look good, make it work, get the design element over, know that that's correct and working, and then just make it look beautiful if you can.  That's it really.
Okay.  And you said that's probably fairly typical across multiple studios then?
Yeah, in the few places that I've worked.  Yeah, yeah.
Okay.  So it's the designers who look more at the target audience?
Hm-hm.
Okay.  It's a very broad question here.  Are there specific games or game genre types that you think are important for any particular reason?
(Laughs) I don't know how to answer that.
Fair enough.
I'll just leave that one to the side.  It's like, what!  (Laughs) 
It's quite broad.
There's an avalanche coming!  (Laughs) 
(Laughs) Okay.  Is the reason for your comment 'there's an avalanche coming' because it's such a complex field?
It's such a broad question, I don't know where the 'n' is to that.  As I say, because I'm not a gamer or anything – if I was into that thing, I'd probably be able to pick something out of that – but just as somebody who likes to make stuff good and nice… you know.
Okay.  So you've been working here for three years, something like that?
I think it's around the four mark.
Four years?
I think so.
Okay.  And before that, it was about seven or eight years within full-time work in the games industry?
In games, yeah.
So you've been in games now for just over a decade or so.
(Laughs) Yeah.
Yeah, ten years.
Help me!  (Laughs) 
Do you think you've seen much change in the representation of games in the wider community, in culture, in mainstream culture, or influencing how people use their time?  Do you think people are paying more attention to games now than they used to, for example?
Probably just with the gadgets being more available, phones, things like that, people are tuned into things a little differently anyway, and I think games are just in that as well.  So I think, yeah, they're probably more glued to it than they may have been before.
So for you, you'd say the smartphones, the mobile technology and tablets, that's a big influence, you'd say?
Yeah, because it's just so commonplace.  It's not like a box in your room somewhere that you sit in front of.  It's literally wherever you are all the time.  That kind of thing, yeah.
So it's much more available?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and commonplace and everywhere.  Even a granny would be playing cards or something (laughs), that kind of thing.  Everybody's got access, yeah, and it's cheaper.
I take it you're familiar with the term 'serious and applied games'?
Hmm.
Do you have any particular opinions on them?  When I say that term, does it—?
Not particularly.  I mean, if they help people learn or – I don't know – get well or something, then yeah, great.  But I don't really have an opinion, except they tend to look ugly, from the ones I've seen (laughs).
They tend to look ugly, don't they?
Yes (laughs).
Yeah, I know that's—  Ooh, okay.  Have you ever played any, do you think?
Played any?
Hm-hm.
No, but I've watched students working, interns and different things like that creating things and showing their graduation projects and stuff.  You just go, okay, well I suppose that does the job it's supposed to do, maybe, but (laughs) yuck.
So it's come through a few times in your choice of language here, which is—  Do you doubt their ability to do good things, or just the—?
No, no, it's just purely a visual aesthetic or pleasing element.  Say if I was—  I don't know.  You can see environments where somebody's doing shipping or something and it all looks real, but it's a bit bluh.  I'd find it less appealing (laughs) if I was there doing this thing.  Even though they're fun and exciting and you've got all the screens and you go, ooh, we're going to crash into a pier, or there's a storm or whatever, this kind of stuff exists but, as an artist, I kind of go… you know (laughs).
(Laughs) For the sake of the audio, she pulled a funny face there.
Yeah (laughs).
So your kind of response to them has been mostly aesthetic.  Do you have any feelings on whether they are good or not?  Do you think they are actually useful as learning tools?
I'd imagine so.  I'd imagine so.  Let me see, what could I say?  Even just down to a simple thing like a driving test or something, I remember having to do that and it was like a little video and stuff.  It didn't cover the responses possible very well, things like that, but I think it's useful.  Yeah, it's useful.
Yeah, okay.  Have you heard the term 'gamification'?
Yes.  Yes, explain (laughs).  Clarify, just in case.
Yeah, it's basically the idea of using game-based techniques in a non-game context.
Oh, like group/company things and stuff like that.  Yeah, yeah, American stuff.
American stuff?  Could you explain further how you characterise this American stuff, please?
(Laughs) Oh, you know, team building and things like that.
Yeah.  How do you—?
Let's just go to the pub or the cinema.  Much better (laughs).
(Laughs) So would it be fairly safe to say, from how you're saying this, that perhaps you're not that fond of these strategies?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Could you put it in your own words how you feel about this?  Remember this is anonymous, so you can say—
(Laughs) Yeah, thanks very much.  I think these things can sometimes be devised by people of a certain character or someone who doesn't recognise a range of individuals who may or may not enjoy certain activities and stuff like that.  So I don't think they're necessarily very well balanced and it's kind of an enforced 'whoo' fun kind of thing.  Being Irish or British, not everybody is like that, either in terms of culturally or just personality types, so I don't think it works very well (laughs).  People do; they go, "Oh, give it a go," and everybody tends to have a laugh or whatever, but, yeah.
Yeah, not as effective as they could be.
Not as effective as they could be.  But I can see how they may work for certain groups or create dialogue or a learning experience, whatever.  Bonding, you know.
But you prefer going to a pub?
I prefer, yeah, having a bit of a chat and laugh and stuff, that kind of thing.  You can get lots of ideas in conversations and boop boop boop going from that.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, yeah (laughs).
(Laughs) Okay.  
That's a secret (laughs).
Yeah (laughs).  Okay, I've got a phrase here, which is: Games are powerful tools to change behaviours and attitudes for the better.  Do you agree with this statement?
What's the proof (laughs) would be my question, actually.  I don't know.  I don't know.  For the better?
Yeah.  So, basically, you're saying they could be, but you haven't seen proof?
Yeah, pretty much.  Change behaviour for the better?  I don't know.  I could see it in maybe the serious games where you're learning a thing.  I know how to put out a fire now; I didn't before, something like that.  But behaviourally, I don't know.  Not saying they can't, but I just don't know.
Yeah, okay, that's fair enough.  Do you think that a serious or applied game with the previously mentioned ugly graphics is more likely to change someone's behaviour for the better or for the worse than an entertainment game, for example?
I don't know.  Perhaps if it was specifically designed to do so, perhaps.  But other than that, I don't see how it would, necessarily.
Okay, sure.  Do you think that serious and applied games use similar kinds of game play mechanisms, psychological mechanisms, as entertainment ones?
Do serious ones use the same psychological—?
Yeah.
I don't know.  I probably haven't seen enough to comment on that, to be sure.
No, that's fine.  Yeah.  But you do think there's a difference in the art quality?
The ones I've seen anyway, yeah.  Yeah, yeah, they seem to be fairly basic, or very low quality, things like that.
And why is good art important to games?
Appeal, I think.  Just appeal and the pleasure of being in an environment or experiencing an environment, a world that is interesting, pleasing.  It engages you.  It helps you engage, I think, for me anyway.
Yeah.  So if the quality of the art in a game is not as good, it's likely to be less appealing?
Less appealing.  It may be really so predictive or something, but I think you're going to look at it before you play it, so that's one of the eye candy kinds of notions.
Yeah, okay.  And so we could say that the lower quality of the serious and applied games is less… they'll be less appealing?
Yeah, I think so.  Say, for example, if you're learning to walk properly again or something, it would be much nicer to be in a beautiful park than some weird box with things that you had to step over or something.  You know that kind of thing?
Yeah.
Yeah, sort of stuff like that (laughs), a healing quality, an uplifting quality to it.
Yeah, okay.  Looking at your experience in studios, what were the main expectations and pressures that were shaping your job?
Giving all your time to it would be the primary one, I think.
Yeah.  So are you saying that the job took up a lot of your—?
Yeah.  I mean, you would just be expected to work seven days solid, twelve-hour days.  If that's what happened, there you are, tough, tough nuggets (laughs).
So you've had experience of crunch, then?
Yeah.  Yeah, really long, extended, awful (laughs)—
How did the company deal with that?
They didn't give a toss (laughs).
(Laughs) Fair enough.
That's really the bottom line (laughs).
Was there supposed to be extra payment or anything like that?
No, no, no.
Did they buy you food?
Yeah, pizza.  Yeah, to keep us really healthy.  Yeah, that'd be it.  But I mean, it's very token gestures and, yeah, people were shafted on the bonus and all that kind of stuff.  So really badly organised, greedy stuff.
Why do you think that crunch happened?  Why was it necessary?
Bad organisation, really.  Bad planning and production planning and stuff like that.  I think a lot of people just didn't understand what they were doing as well.  You know, good intentions and stuff like that, but—  
For example, one of the projects, it would just roll on and on, so I kept changing [0:18:56] all the time (laughs).  It was like, we're not going to get to the end of this until somebody decides this is what it's supposed to look like, that kind of thing.  And those things being allowed to happen, I think caused those kinds of situations.
Do you think it would be possible for somebody to look at the work of different studios and try and find better ways of it being done to try and teach different studios to be more efficient at these kinds of things?
I'd say if people had experience of the games industry themselves, that may help, as well as not just 'I know how to structure things', but to have an insight into a particular kind of character and how it can be.  I think insight into that, plus good—  Yeah, and an openness for whatever company to go, "Somebody come in and tell us how to do this better," as well, otherwise it wouldn't happen.  
It's a bit like here; the design and production guys teaching students here, hoping that will help, and then on our side, for artists, kind of going, "No, you are important.  Don't just take whatever's coming.  Don't go out and do the same thing as we did," sort of thing.  Just actually improve what's happening and be aware.
So, learning to be better managers and producers is an important part?
Yeah.  Yeah, to have some understanding of how the whole thing goes and to have been on crash and burn teams in college and successful teams in college.  Stuff like that just to learn from those experiences and not just repeat it.  To actually learn and try and fix is a good thing, a good piece of info for people to go out into the world with.
But you think the understanding of how the entertainment games industry works particularly is important to making that happen, to getting that insight?
If you were a group of people who were approaching companies going, "We can make this better for you," yeah, I think so.  Otherwise, you might be just some sort of flying—  What are they called?  Anyway, just drop in, blah blah blah, here, let's do this workshop, or something (laughs) and then get on.  And then people are like, "That didn't make any sense for us," that kind of thing.  So yeah, I think having an understanding would be important.
So if there was an academic study done of this, how essential would you say it is to make sure games developers from the entertainment industry are involved?
To gather information pertaining to it?
Yeah.
Yeah, it would be super-important, I think, yeah.
Yeah, okay.  Cool.  I suppose another question is, why did you all do the crunch?
Why?  Yeah, I think a lot of people—  I don't know if it's in every industry or not, but it was kind of the same in the animation as well.  People are just – what's the word I'm trying to think of? – kind of conscientious, they just want to and there's a kind of, oh, you don't want to let them down, or, oh well, we have to fix it, or something.  There's an element of people's own personality and I think there's also a certain amount of being sheep: "If John's staying, I'd better stay then," that kind of thing.  And also keeping your job.  Yeah, yeah, things like that.  And maybe things like carrots, as in, well, if you do complete this, you'll get a bonus or something, stuff like that.  A few different sorts of elements.
Because you mentioned a little bit earlier about people moving between companies and stuff, do you think risk in a workplace, the instability of the job or feeling like there's other people who can do the job, do you think that is something that results in quite a lot of pressure, or is that a small aspect of what people think about? 
Um…
Feeling like you're at risk in the workplace.
In that you're disposable?
Yeah, I suppose so.
I suppose it would.  It wasn't necessarily something that crossed my mind so much.  It was more just whether I'm enjoying doing it or not.  But I'd say it must be a factor for some people.  I'd imagine it would be.
When you moved companies, did you manage to get another place nearby, or did you have to move cities?
No, it was very convenient actually, all round the [centre 0:23:20] (laughs).  Yes, no problem at all, yeah.
Were you in a particularly good place for it, a good hub for games?
Yeah.  I don't know if it was a particularly good hub.  There just happened to be a few games companies in that little area.
Spot, yeah.
I suppose, yeah, exactly.  It wasn't like mega something (laughs).
Do you think that's a common experience that people can just jump in locations, or do they have to really move more?
For games, I'm not sure.  I'm not sure.  I just was possibly lucky with the little city collection I was in.  But I was living in a location I found terrifically boring (laughs), so there is that sort of thing, and I did move from one country to another to work there as well.
Okay.  So you'd relocated a lot to get that first job?
Yes.  Yeah, yeah.
Okay.  Would there have been any jobs in games near where you lived?
No.  No, no.  No, I don't think so really, not at the time.
Okay.  Okay, so obviously one of the things I've mentioned about Gaming Horizons is that it does look at ethical issues and relationship to society and social responsibility and politics and such like.  While working on games, do you recall intentionally addressing issues such as gender, minority representations, political culture, or other serious or educational topics in your work?
While working in games?
Yeah.
Nah, they just went and made games.  Nobody talked about anything (laughs) being right or wrong, or good or bad.  "How much blood can we throw on the screen?"  "More!"  That kind of thing.
(Laughs) Do you think any of these topics have unintentionally being touched on in any of your games?
No, I don't think so (laughs).  Probably not.  They may have been touched on as in, oh my god, I can't believe we did that, or something.  But I mean, actually, I find it hard to even flash back now over it.  I would say they were all male characters or something.  I would say that sort of stuff, you could look at that sort of thing now, but completely unsurprising for the time, I think (laughs).
Yeah.  You mentioned all male characters, so do you think that's changing much at the moment, or is that still the same?
I don't know.  I don't know.  I don't play enough games to know what's out there in terms of that changing.
Fair enough.  Because you're within the art team and you've always worked in the art teams, do you think that discussions about gender representation or minority representation, do you think those happen in other parts of the team?  So for example, within the executive level or designers, production, or is it just not happening at all anywhere in the studio?
Then, as opposed to now, you mean?
Oh, both.  Why not?  So, back then?
Now, I don't know, but then, I would say the only point of discussion that may have been that I've heard about but wasn't present for was, "Who'd want to play a woman?"  Lara Croft, you know (laughs).  That was a point of it nearly not happening kind of thing.  So I'm sure some things were touched upon, but I don't know with what sort of light of informed (laughs) sort of mind.
Yeah, okay.  So you mentioned it might be different now.
Possibly, yeah.  Yeah, possibly.  I mean, times just change.  It's still—  I don't know.  Say I was the only female in the team, basically, which is normally what the situation would've been for me through all the games companies, there was a kind of laddy culture and stuff, but within that, it was really just fun.  Do you know what I mean?  Within that, you'd have decent conversations about all sorts with people.
So I think there may be still that kind of laddy thing, but it doesn't mean that people are insensitive or horrible or thick (laughs) and stuff, that kind of thing.  But I think there are probably more females.  I see a lot of females here, women here, and I think we're just a bit more tuned in, generally, to stuff like that now as well.  Being sensitive to stuff or aware of stuff that we just weren't before.  You know, brought up with The Sweeney (laughs).
(Laughs) So it is something that's kind of changing, perhaps?
I would guess so.  I mean, I can't be sure because I haven't done a study of it or anything, but I just see that if the face of this place is anything like what may be happening in studios now, then the face of it, the look of it is changing, at least on the outside.
Okay.  Out of interest, out of the people you worked with, you mentioned you were the only woman on the art team.
Hm-hm.
Was it the only woman on the whole team?
Yeah (laughs).
How big was that team?
There were usually about thirty-something, something along that line.  Yeah, there were two other female artists in one of the companies I was in.  I was the only female in the whole company in one place (laughs).  But it's not something I ever really noticed.  Even when I was here, I remember Martin Walker saying to me, "You know you're the only technical art person that's female?" and I kind of went, "Oh yeah, it's happened again," kind of thing.  
But it's never a thing that I'd notice.  It's only if somebody brings it up, I kind of go, "Oh yeah."  Or if I happen to be in a room working with a bunch of women or something, I'll think, this feels a bit weird (laughs), what's changed, that kind of thing.  But I never found it an issue or anything.  It was good fun.
The people you worked with, were they from the UK or Ireland?
A mix, yeah, yeah.  It's quite a mobile city.
Europe as well?
Yeah.  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Let me see.  I'd say, when I was in England, it was mostly Brits, but we had Italians and stuff.  Oh, I can't remember.  It was ages ago.  But a mix, yeah.  But Europe?  I don't recall others.  I'll come back to you if I remember anything (laughs).  But yeah, mostly—
And you said team sizes were usually about thirty to forty?
Yeah, stuff like that.  Yeah, yeah, unless they were just kind of going off and rummaging together, some idea or something.
Yeah.  So it's kind of a mid-sized studio then, really.
Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff.
Not perhaps AAA but not indie budget type of stuff.
No, no, not that kind of thing.  It was core and stuff, core design, that sort of thing, yeah.
Yeah.  So it was looking for the core game market?
Hm-hm.
Yeah, okay.  Last couple of questions really.  Let's look back for ten years.  What would you say were the major changes in the last ten years of games?  Is there anything particularly that jumps out at you as a big thing?
I would just say maybe that.  If this is my experience of it now from this side of it rather than in it and if it's looking different on this side, I imagine, as I said earlier, it's probably looking different out in the world now.  So I think just more mixed, I suppose, groups, less likely to have just one female in a roomful of men or a company (laughs).
(Laughs) Yeah.  So is a—
I think that would be a change.  And I've heard, say, even for programming and stuff, there are slight differences coming about now, things like that.  So, yeah.  But I'm not sure what effect that will have fully once you're out there.  I think that's more a societal thing (laughs) as to how we look at stuff.
Yeah.  So, increased diversity within games teams?
I think so, yeah.  Yeah, yeah.  I don't know if that's just within games or if it's just a general cultural thing across the board in every company.  I'm not sure.
Could be, yeah.  Just quickly, I suppose.  Is there a difference in that diversity depending on the skill set of the team?  So for example, programmers to artists to designers.
I deal with the artists, so that's quite a mixed bunch.  It's quite mixed.  Programming, I think it's very low on females.  I can't even think of one female in the third year.  I'm not sure, there may be, but I don't know.  If I'm not actually directly teaching them, I don't know.  And design production seems to be quite a mix as well, but I'm not sure what the balance is.
Okay.  If we were to look at the same question in ten years' time – so, looking back to now and going, "Oh, in the last ten years, the big change was…" – what do you think is going to be the big change in games?  It could be technology.  It could be people.  It could be anything.
Oh god, I don't know.  I don't know.  Like trends, I don't follow that sort of stuff.  I just see what comes through the door here.  I don't know.  Maybe how games are used or something, or how they appear in their world through technological changes.  I wouldn't be surprised if—  That seems to be going skip, skip, skip [0:32:58], you know, stuff like that.  So I think that sort of area is looking interesting.
So, perhaps the medium that they come in touch with?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, or how, again, more engaged we are with where they fit into our world and stuff like that.
Okay, cool.
Is that it?
Thank you very much.
Well, it was fun.  Thank you very much.
Good.  You're welcome.  I'm glad you enjoyed it.
A nice interview technique (laughs).
Thank you (laughs).