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Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
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Okay, the recorder is going, it seems to pick up levels.  Could you say your name and spell it please?
Yeah, my name is [anon].
Cool, thank you.  And just for the tape, can you confirm your consent to this recording?
I consent to this recording. 
Awesome, thank you.  Can you tell me about what you do with games please?
Yes, although I don’t know it’s how other people would define how I work, but I tend to consider games as part of my practice as an artist.  My practice includes theatre and performance, and interactive theatre and community performance, and processes which are interactive as well as products which are interactive.  
I currently am taking a break from arts world because it’s so exhaustingly self-exploitative, there’s so little money around that I just was miserable for almost all the time that I was – because to do a project well you have to spend so much more time than anyone will ever commission you for.  So I’m currently taking a break from the incredibly poorly paid and self-exploitative world of publicly funded arts and I’m currently working primarily as a writer and narrative designer of video games.  
I write critically about video games, I’ve got a PhD in ‘games influence theatre and theatre influence games’.  I write articles for online publications, and books and that kind of thing on all the spaces in between these things. 
Cool.  So how long have you been involved with games creation?
Hmm, like I wasn’t coding as a kid, but I was using like silly little, there was a thing called 3D Movie Maker for the Windows 95 or something like that, which was, which allowed you to pose characters in positions and put them in scenarios and sort of make your own film.  But I guess I kind of made games out of that; I’d make like different choices that you could make and stuff, so I’ve been – I wouldn’t have thought of myself as someone that played video games, because I just grew up with The Sims and Command and Conquer, and these things just being in our house.  Like just world games and that kind of thing.  
I didn’t really know about gaming.  I had an oppressive identity until a bunch later when men told me I wasn’t allowed to be where I didn’t know where I already was (laughs).  
But I guess I’ve been interested in games for a super-long time, but not the kind of games that you’re supposed to like if you work in games.  You’re supposed to like all the console games and stuff, I never played console games, I have really bad controller literacy, so I’m actually pretty bad at most, like AAA shooter, that kind of thing.  I can’t really play in that culture because I’m not very good at the language of the games controller, dual-stick controls in particular.  
I’m super-aware that theatre involves an awful lot of game in it, so you may be talking about video games specifically but like an awful lot of my, like seventeen-eighteen year old education in performance involved like Augusto Boal and games for actors and non-actors; like games and tweaking games until they were good like workshop materials.  As ways to work on, like little games as ways to work on a character or a piece of development in theatre it’s super-common.  So I think the instincts of game design come from my theatrical background.       
I made a decision, a quite conscious decision to move into video games, about three years ago.  I was doing a bunch of work in pervasive games and the bit of games that crosses over between video games and a lot of my video games, contacts and friends, are people I met through pervasive games coming from the other direction.  But I decided that I’d quite like to write for games, but it was really difficult to know how to get into that, because again those aren’t really, if they’re advertised positions there’s the level that want experience and I didn’t have any.  They’re not advertised positions, you just kind of have to find the people doing stuff.  
So I made a decision that I wanted to get work writing for games and so I set about a) showing people I could write and b) showing people I knew about games.  So I started doing like critical writing for Rock, Paper, Shotgun, and did a series of performance talks which were about games, a series I called a Psychogeography of Games, which explored game design through the places and game design of lives.  
All of those were super-conscious decisions to put my writing in public and put my writing in the context of games into the public, so eventually I would meet more people, they would know who I am, they would know what I liked doing and I’m perfectly, unashamedly able to tell someone to hire me because I think I’m good, whether or not I have the experience. 
So eventually some people just said, yes, when I said, hire me, and they were like, okay that’s fine, I’ll hire you.  It was a person who particularly wanted public funding experience, so I worked with the creative producer, so I was involved in the narrative design but I also had the public sector funding language.  So that was my bridge project, where I was paid like a decent amount and worked on a pretty interesting project.  It bridged me from like theatre to like literacy with games, like technologies and processes, and technologies and stuff, a greater literacy I should say.  
Thereafter, when I ran out of work I said to the internet, hey, you should hire me, I’m good; and eventually someone always replies and says, yes.  Presumably I am good enough that no one warns other people not to hire me, so (laughs). 
I think I recognised your name from the Psychogeography ones, which I quite enjoyed, so that was good, yeah.  I was looking you up earlier and I was like, I would follow her on Twitter, okay that would make sense, okay.  
So who do you think plays the games that you make?  Who is your audience I suppose could be another way of phrasing it?
It depends again if you mean video games or, like obviously the community based work that I do and the games for playing audiences as opposed to for, like video game audiences would always be a specific group of people that I was trying to talk to or working amongst and stuff.  So that would depend on the project and where I’d been based and where I might be put in residence.  
In terms of who will play – because I’m only like three years into this stuff, most of the stuff I’ve worked on hasn’t come out yet, so I don’t have any facts and figures to back-up any particular assertions.  But I imagine the general demographic that I’m aiming at are people who enjoy subtlety and story-telling and like people pushing at the edges of the medium, which you might characterise as an independent games audience.  
But also because of my networks and the people interested in my work and my practice since before I was solely working in games, I think that I – well I attempt to bridge to other art forms and like, I try and sometimes talk quite plainly on Twitter and not use a bunch of games terminology that games people don’t know is terminology, in order to hopefully broaden what people think of as games.  So I guess, I hope that I do a small amount of advocacy, but it’s really on a personal level, I wouldn’t say that I’m changing games audiences or anything.   
Do you think that that’s a common problem within academia, within games development, or within any community of specialist knowledge, that the language becomes a barrier?
I mean language, I think that sometimes you need specific language to talk about complicated ideas, but sometimes you need to invent language.  
I think the problem comes when you don’t realise that that specialist knowledge and language in some situations is alienating, in and of itself it’s not alienating, in some cases it’s enabling.  A lot of the concepts crossover, people just use different words for it, but that’s why I’m a fan of cross-disciplinarity and I think way more people from different forms of art should be working together where possible and it should be encouraged and thought about positively, particularly in games, because games were often rejected from the realms of that, that fair enough, games has got a bit annoyed and gone, fine, we’re not art, we’ll do our own thing, art is stupid and puffed up and thinks it’s important anyway, and it’s not. 
So I think that it’s hard to reintroduce cross-disciplinarity because games has just been so badly treated by the other forms of art, that people are a bit resistant to it and afraid to be thought of as arty or stuffy, or whatever.  But I think from cross-disciplinarity comes an understanding of how to bridge the different languages and comes an understanding of how someone has already developed a piece of language for that thing in a different form.  So it’s not a problem so much until you don’t notice it, then it’s a problem.
I take it you’re aware of the terms ‘applied games’ and ‘serious games’?
I am, I would resist them though. 
What is the nature of your resistance?
(Laughs) just because no one, no one would in their life – like theatre is a silly thing, right?  Like it’s a silly thing, people stand in costumes and pretend that you’re not there and say words that they didn’t mean and dance and─  Like, no one goes, oh we need serious art when like, because someone made a comic.  No one goes, we need serious graphic novels; and I feel like it’s solving a problem that, in the completely wrong way.  
I feel that you have to make an argument for the form, not by funnelling off a tiny bit of it and calling it serious games.  I think we should allow any form of game to be considered serious, insofar as like, any serious game should be given realm to be entertaining if it’s to its purpose, or enjoyable.  I think that, yeah, I think you lose like a lot by saying that things need to be serious.   
What was the other definition?
Applied games, are about behavioural change, positive behavioural change, so doing stuff that you know you should do, but you probably don’t because you don’t find it fun.  I tend to say serious games are training and education in things which are new.  So one’s existing knowledge that you don’t apply, the other one’s bringing new knowledge that you don’t have. 
Applied games, applied theatre is a thing as well, but again I – that in particular I have real problems with, because you sort of – there’s a quality of self-congratulation in applied theatre, and applied games, which assumes that you’re good and therefore what you do with this thing, this technology, this interface is therefore good.  
I am really concerned about gamification and the use of games to produce behaviours.  I feel like games and art is a process and should never aim towards a product.  I absolutely despise everything that Jane McGonigal ever wrote, because she aims at producing ‘better citizens’.  Like she doesn’t at all critique the word ‘better’, like what does she mean, better.  Then she qualifies it as, ‘more productive’, I’m like, that is a super, super late capitalism idea of what productivity is, what ‘better’ means.  
Like, oh we can heal people so they can return to the workforce.  I’m like, fuck-off.  Like I actually really, really want, don’t want people to try and affect my behaviour through what can be an incredibly coercive system.  Game designers are very good at designing for behaviour, and so therefore I think it’s imperative that we don’t try and produce behaviour, but rather, produce context from which people can examine behaviour.  Produce a basis for reflection, not to produce an outcome or a behaviour change, or those kind of things.  
I think that they should only ever be used to provide space for reflection and do so carefully, and crucially in exposing their workings as well.  Because the tools of change and a revolution are nothing if not in the hands of the people who you want to do the changing and the revolting.  So in that case, you need, you can’t just manipulate people, you have to show people the tools of manipulation and allow them to reflect on them, and build whatever the hell they want afterwards.  
So I think I would step like fully away from applied games and talk about games literacy and building games with people, not like to produce a certain kind of thing. 
Sorry, that was, I got a bit angry didn’t I? 
(Laughs) that passion is very, very much appreciated.  Yeah, I mean the next question that I won’t even bother with now was, ‘games are powerful tools to change attitudes and behaviours for the better’ do you think this is true or not, and I think you very clearly stated your opinion on that one.  So thank you very much. 
Saving us a bit of time.  
It’s nice to have someone who can express it so fluently and back it up with a good reasoned argument, so I very much appreciate that. 
Cool, that means I’m getting quoted doesn’t it?
Oh yeah, that’s getting quoted, the whole – believe me, yeah.  
We’ve had a few good ones from this weekend; Simon yesterday who comes from a punk ethos, also was looking at kind of serious and applied games as kind of an indoctrination system within, specifically and mostly mentioning capitalism.  
Yeah, sure.  
So yeah, very nice, kind of social context and how games are being used again to fit people within a specific scope and an expectation of social conformity.  Rarely do you have an applied or serious game which is helping people to express non-conformist attitudes.  So they’re basically a reflection of a heteronormativity of orthodoxy.  
This question is very vague, but what do you think makes games compelling, good, successful, fun, interesting; what’s the appeal of a video game?
Sure, I mean the first part of that answer is that, I don’t think games are any of those things; some games are some of those things.  So I have a problem when people generalise games because no one ever goes, and no one would ever say the same with theatre or dance or that kind of thing, because they understand that it’s a many and varied thing, a many and varied practice.  So what do I think makes some games good, or what were the other words?
Compelling, fun, successful, worth playing, interesting. 
I guess I would give a process answer, which is that, I think that the ones which really clearly understand the form that they’re working with and the affordances that that form gives them.  That understand the material of interaction, they understand their invitation to interact, they know what they want to communicate, or what they want to ask, or the quality, the aesthetics, the question they want to highlight and they use the, both form and content to work together in order to do that.  
So that’s a really general response, but I think that that’s the only response you can give to such a generalised question.  
What do you think are the main pressures on games developers?  So people who are doing this for their living. 
To speak from my perspective?
Sure. 
Capitalism, like the fact that we have to earn money pretty much stops a bunch of people making good work.  Like artistic limitations are useful, financial limitations are not.  I would love to be able to make a game with another, with a crew of people, from scratch, that took my narrative ideas─  Like from the very beginning I was involved in a process, not just coming in half way through to complete what someone else had already started, but there’s no way that I could do that, there’s just no way I could do that, unless it was a company who had already had a really successful game and were using the money they got from that to start a new project.  
There’s no way I could do that, because I barely survive year to year.  I’m in a much better position than I was two or three years ago, because I solely now get my money from video games and the money in video games is like better than basic arts funding.  But not a great deal better, it’s just the difference of like fifty-pounds to my day rate that’s made the difference.  
I could just about – because I’m quite an experienced artist now, could just about command a £150 day rate in the arts.  But in video games, £200 for a small project per day is about what I can charge.  After a year I’ll probably call it 250, but that, most people won’t have to negotiate me down I think on like an independent games budget.  So for that reason I can’t do any of what I really would like to do as an artist and start from the beginning, to involve a bunch of my ideas from the beginning.  
So the fact that I haven’t got money and a support network.  I don’t, I mean it’d be so much worse if I had caring responsibilities, there’d be no way I could keep a family on this level of money and stuff.  And the fact that I get a lot of my work from living in London, but my rent is like, for a tiny room in a two-bed flat that I share with one other person I pay like £600 a month, which is quite a lot. 
So like capitalism is like a huge, like barrier to making games.  So too is the fact that you have to produce quite a well-developed prototype for getting funding usually, because a lot of the funding is on the basis of publishers thinking that you have a decent enough thing and they’re going to return their investment on, so you pay back your money basically.  They will, I don’t know if you know this, they’ll go, we’ll give you the money it costs to finish this game and they’ll recoup that out of the profits, including your profits as well.  
So that model, although it allows you to spend quite a lot of money, way more than you would in the arts, it doesn’t actually – there’s no seed funding out there really.  There’s very little things to start unless you’ve already had a successful game, or you’re working with people who’ve already had a successful game and that like sparks that starting point.  
Then also the bridge between like, I’ve had a sort of successful thing but it’s definitely not enough money to allow me to step forward, I just have to do another small thing.  Like the bridge and the seed funding is super, super lacking and that’s a huge barrier.  
Gender is a huge barrier for me.  People – I don’t tend to look like a video games woman, which isn’t so [0:20:40] and I absolutely will not denigrate anyone who chooses to do that, or doesn’t feel like they’re doing that, but it just is how they want to be.  But I am a reasonably pretty young woman and that means I am so rarely taken seriously, that I get quite aggressive in proving my intelligence and my ability and stuff, which is not so much as a barrier, as a constant negotiation and weight on my like emotional burdens and all of that.  
I don’t always feel safe in video game spaces.  Gamergate made me feel, like affected friends of mine who had to move house, or friends of friends who were like, were seriously attacked and put in danger from it.  Like it didn’t directly affect me, but I did spend a lot of time upping all my online security and taking precautions, which I guess we should all take, but yeah, I certainly find that being a woman, it doesn’t affect my work but it’s just like a barrier to – but then I wouldn’t want to work with the people who would think less of me because I’m a woman, but that they exist at all means that there’s like a world less─
Also like the, I have a really well-developed sense of self-respect and I’m very capable of telling people I’m good and that they should hire me, just like that.  Like I will just happily say that; someone will tell me about a project and I’ll say, you should hire me.  It’s fine if they say, no; like I’m really happy to do that, but that allows me to excel in a particularly, what you might term as masculine way, which I do it slightly more aggressively because men are just taken seriously and men are used to applying, like studies show that men apply for things they’re not qualified for.  I do that also, but that is not – like where I succeed, five or ten other women would never have had the wherewithal to do that.  
I’m also aware that the barrier has been much less to me, because I’m a particular kind of person and missing some kind of gene that would make me feel ashamed of myself (laughs).  
So what, capitalism, gender, other barriers; the assumptions by funding bodies and outside of games, about what games are, and equally the assumption of publishers and people in games about what games can be.  Both of those are barriers and make it really difficult to communicate to players about like, what the thing that you’re making is, but that’s a problem across all art forms.  Like theatre is always having conversations about how we communicate to audiences; like how do we get people to come and do a new thing that they’ve not heard of, rather than a show that they’ve already seen being remounted, that they know the story of.  That’s just a problem everywhere.  
So I guess like, yeah, audience communication and like accessibility, like where you can access the games and who can play them and how they’re played as well.  Let’s just stop there, cause.
Okay.  So obviously you spoke earlier, but it wasn’t on this recording.  Have you deliberately addressed gender, minority representation, political culture of other serious or socially educational topics in your work?
I certainly have.  I would consider my work to have included some activist work, but it’s not really addressing all of those things.  I guess my work has been about going to communities and trying to listen to them, and inviting them to speak, because I, as a profession have developed my articulacy to a level which allows me to communicate well to, for want of a better word, audiences.  So I have attempted to lend my articulacy to others, help them develop their tools of articulacy through workshops and stuff like that, and also provide means through which I articulate, I help them articulate what they have said, or I quote them, that kind of thing. 
I’m also super-conscious that I don’t, I don’t necessarily think that’s good.  I don’t know if it’s the best way to, I don’t think that activist art should be artists going into communities and speaking for them.  Like, because no matter how much I’m quoting them and trying to understand, it’s their story through my lens and I am a nice, pretty, white woman in like some, wandering around on some estate, there are some people who will talk to me and some people who definitely won’t.  I don’t speak any other languages apart from English.  There are some people on that estate that I’m in, who might not speak English at all.  
I did try a thing once where I attempted to recruit people in the community, who would in turn sort of do the same thing as me, and go and find people to talk to, in that way and hopefully would connect to the people who spoke a different language, or the people who mightn’t walk up to me in the street.  But I don’t think that was, I think that would’ve only been really like okay, had I had the money to pay everyone the same as what I was being paid.  
After a point in activist art I kind of begin to think, I should just be giving this money to someone else, or it should be a local artist, not me who’s doing this stuff, and we should be recognising what these people are already doing as art, instead of like deciding that my museum literate art is art and what they do in their homes when they weave a new topie cap isn’t art and craft or whatever.
So I have addressed that stuff by trying to find those people and hopefully provide a context for them to speak and be heard, but equally I don’t, I am constantly assessing my, the righteousness of those acts and trying to work out what the best thing to do by each person and people is.  
It’s difficult and I haven’t got the answer; I think the important first thing is to ask and to keep asking, because the answer will change each day and with each group of people etc.   
In terms of players and audiences, how have they responded to that kind of focus in your work?
Like bewilderment usually followed by like surprise and usually pretty like well.  Like after the Teviot Tales project, after all the – everyone always rated the workshop super-highly and said that they enjoyed themselves, even though they were a bit like, didn’t really know why they were doing it at the beginning.  And equally with the presentation of the game which happened in one of their community centres, I just invited loads of people in and it’s where loads of people drop their kids off for nursery and came for their study, like their─  Do you know the whole, is it the, I’m so bad at the – the Quran, there we do, the Quran study groups and stuff.  So as soon as anyone came through the doors I would invite them to come and do this thing, and I’d built like a plinth which totally removed the computer.  So it was a TV screen which had the game on and also one facing outside, so as people played it they could see it, walk past they might come in and have a go themselves.  
But I also took away a mouse, because I’d done a bunch of IT learners for seventy-five year olds and over, games workshops and really discovered how a mouse, mice are really confusing to people who don’t have literacy of them; and just had like an Apple TouchPad and just said, if you move your finger over this you will be able to move your mouse and you move the little thing into the choice that you want to make and they’re highlighted and you just press to click.  
So everything was removed apart from this thing, which most people haven’t seen a flat style Apple TrackPad, so it didn’t look like a computer, it didn’t look confusing, it looked like a telly with a thing that, a weird thing.  So sometimes a weird thing is better than technology, a weird thing, no one understands, so you can’t be made to look foolish.  Technology, some people understand and they make you feel bad.   
So that’s how it was set up, and then people played through and read through, and people who were in it came in and brought their little boy in, hiked him up onto his hip and said, look that’s daddy, so there lots of really lovely reactions from people who were in it, and people who were just passing by and interested, and I had decent kind of responses from people who were online who just played it, because I made it available online.  
But that also – there was one person in particular who was featured who I’d chatted to a bunch of times, I recorded her, I checked she was okay to have herself represented in there, but when she played it, which was a little bit after the exhibition.  Because I did an exhibition for like the people who were involved to come and play it, check they were okay with everything before it went out, and she’d chosen not to come to go to that.  
But then she played it afterwards and she got really upset about how she’d been portrayed.  But the super-difficult thing was that she was upset by something that was in quotation marks, was actually something she had said, and she didn’t quite, I don’t know if she realised that it was a quote or not.  
It was basically, it was her talking about, she mentioned her skin colour.  She called herself like half-Caribbean, half-East London or something like that, but she used a particular phrasing, I can’t remember, and she was really angry.  She was really like, she thought I was being super-racist, and got back to me and I was like – and I felt that I was quite clear that it was a quote, but it hadn’t come across as a quote to her and she hadn’t remembered saying it, so she was suddenly like, you can’t describe me like that.  
I was like, yeah you’re absolutely right, I can’t, and I didn’t, but I also understand that the game – I tried to write it to make myself present, because if I were to vanish myself and my lens, which was certainly there, I think that would be less honest than going, I walked around and I talked to these people.  I think it’s important to represent myself in that writing.  But that means that my white woman lens was still present when presenting that quote.  
Yeah. 
So I absolutely am not saying that she wasn’t right to change how she felt about her right to be used in that, but I’m just saying that that’s, that’s an example of the constant negotiation which is important and all of the things that need to be put in place that you just, you don’t have all the time or the money for, because it’s like arts funded.  
Like there should’ve been a week where everyone could drop in and have a play of the game, but because of the timescales involved it was one day and it’s a day that she couldn’t make.  Actually, ideally I would’ve been a resident in that; I was only there like two days a week per week over six months.  Like ideally I should’ve fucking lived there, and ideally they should’ve got someone from that community to do that thing.  
So like it becomes this, it’s a complex negotiation.  So when you ask like, what were the reactions, I think it’s important to tell you about a problematic reaction as well as a, oh yeah, mostly people think it’s good.  Mostly people are surprised to enjoy it, but there are really – like the accusations of art-washing that were made of that project as well, which I address on the website and I hold those same critiques and it’s part of the reason why I am taking, a possibly indefinite hiatus from activist art, because I think maybe I just need to be an activist and not an artist.  I’m not sure. 
So yeah, I think that there’s no such thing as a university well-received thing, but yeah, if you’re doing that stuff with any degree of depth, it’s going to be hard.  You’re going to go wrong. 
Yeah, but it’s also, it’s sort of necessary to do, but it’s also so hard to get right.  Two quick final questions, because I’m aware I’m taking up your time.  
One of them is quickly, in your interactions with game developers, you obviously have an academic background, a lot of them probably don’t, how much have they, have they really worked with academics before and have they got anything from academic research that they find really useful?
I’m a particular kind of – I have an academic background, that’s for certain, I wouldn’t really still call myself an academic, because I really didn’t like inhabiting the world of academia.  I found it really restrictive and I like the rigour that having gone through the process of doing a PhD gave me, and the means for which I developed my articulacy, in a way that as a woman gives me way more credence than it would if I did – to not have that PhD then a lot of men would not take me as seriously as they.  Like it’s an instant ticket to being taken seriously.  It’s also a super-big privilege, like I was on a scholarship for my PhD, I would not have been able to afford it if I’d had to pay for it.  So like, I’m also aware that I’m working one of my privileges when I do work that angle.  
But being, the difficulties of working – because I’m an in-between academic, because I did a PhD but I did not have any interest in staying.  I enjoy teaching, but I do not want to be part of the system and the bureaucracy of academia and I like making work, and all of my friends who try and take being an academic, practice based an academic on, because they’ve got a family now and they need a steady wage.  Like their work has just suffered, they cannot be practitioners anymore and they’re unhappy and they’re over-worked and they’re exploited.  So I’m an in-betweeny really, so I find it easy to slot into an academic context, but really happy to walk away from it; and have lost some rigour in order to be expressive in the way that I find useful. 
Equally I can talk not academia pretty well.  So I don’t struggle too much, but I certainly think that there’s huge scepticism and huge mistrust between games and any form of institution, including the arts, including the public funded sector and including academia.  Like a huge lack of understanding, a huge confusion as to whether it’s technology or whether it’s art, and a bunch of binary thinking, which is really not helpful.
So I think a lot of it could be bridged much more easily if everyone was just a bit more open.  Because there’s a really big games anti-formalist, like a lot of people I know and on Twitter and stuff are really against academia, they think it’s really bad, because they hate things being pinned down or defined because so often they’ve been told that they aren’t what they think they are.  
I think academia has its place and is really important as both a reflective space and as a means of archiving and making histories, which no one is able to do as they’re making because they have to keep on moving, keep on moving.  
So I think that there is an opportunity for a really fruitful relationship between the two but requires a bunch of games to understand the importance of archiving and reflecting to understand that they’re not being told that they’re stupid or that they’re wrong, and the kind of, the ways of being an academic are kind of a little bit argumentative or about making grand claims and then having other people pull you down and sort of absorbing some of that.  
Equally, academia needs to understand how badly treated games have been for a bunch of time, and understand those insecurities and communicate better about what they do and why they do it.  Yeah, it’d be interesting to see if universities actually pop up at – can you imagine a university being at E3 or GDC, like having a stand about, like MIT having a stand about all the incredible things that they do in the games lab.  Like that would be a small piece of outreach that would make a huge difference to how a bunch of people see the role of academia in games.  They might not even know that MIT games lab exists. 
Yeah.  Okay, final one.  What do you see as big trends for the next ten years of games?  This can be an entirely personal opinion, don’t worry, I’m not going to hold you to this. 
Yeah, next ten years.  I don’t know.  I can tell you what I would hope for. 
Sure.  
But I absolutely don’t think I can speak for what would happen.  Because like, there’s a good chance that in ten years society will have become a completely different or collapsed thing, so I don’t know if games will even be a thing.  What do I hope games might – ten years, ten years is a really long time isn’t it?
Five years, then. 
Five years would be like – I would like games to stop being that thing that people, like institutions go to when they want to reach young people.  I would like them to consider it not a, like a process to get to and audience.  I would like to think of them as a, like as a museum goes like, we should do a game because it’s cool and trendy and some kids will come into our museum.  I would like a museum to go, would you do a game because I think this is an interesting way to communicate an idea that we have or a part of our collection.  Sort of not aiming at an audience, but rather interested in the affordance as a medium.  
I would like, like the stuffy over-fifty public discourse to have a better grasp about what games can be in terms of like – like you know, the Radio 4 Today programme, I’d like John Humphries to not be the person who delivers what games are to the British public, you know.  Like Naomi Alderman should be the person talking about it on that kind of primetime─ 
Yeah, fewer divisions between disciplines would be super-great, and the idea of starting out to say a thing and not knowing what form you’re going to use yet, I don’t know what that art form would be, but I kind of like the idea that multidisciplinarity would grow, at least, even if just a team being multidisciplinary.  
Awesome.  I think that’s probably a good point to wrap it up on.  Thank you very much for the interview. 
No worries.