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Bold:		Interviewer
Regular:		Respondent
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Before we start, as you know, you’ll have gathered now we’re already recording, so is that okay?
Yes.
Great, okay.  It’s nice to see you, nice to meet you finally.  Before we actually start, let me just run through things with you just for a second.  Thanks again for agreeing to do the interviews with us.  You’ll remember that we’re doing these interviews as part of the project to try and gain the vision about games and gaming professionally and in society in general from a series of different actors and different stakeholders, including those who have experience in education like yourself.
So just to let you know how we’ll run it more or less.  We’ve got about six general themes that we’re running the interviews on.  Very general themes.  We’ve actually prepared a few slides.  I’ll ask you some questions as we start through each of these general themes and when we’ve done with that theme I’ll show you another slide which has the same theme on it but also a few keywords.  These are a few of the aspects that have come up already in the project that have been discussed or analysed, so we’d like to just check with them and you can see if you think you’ve covered those areas or if you’d like to add something about those specific areas that have come up.  I’ll talk you through it, I’ll let you know as I show each one.  Is that fine?
Yeah.
As far as the interview goes, it’s very relaxed and flexible in the sense that there’s absolutely no rush and no hurry, we don’t have to do a broadcast style interview.  You can take as much time as you like to think about things, consider things, you can change your mind and do a correction.  You can also ask me or interrupt me whenever you like, ask me for any clarifications or anything.  You can also decide not to answer a question I put to you if you want to.  That’s totally up to you, it’s no problem.  And it should be round about forty-five minutes to an hour.  
Now that we’ve introduced it, let’s get started.  I’ll just show the screen so you can see the slide.  Can you see that now?
Yes.
Can you also see the video of myself and yourself?
Yes.
So you can see both, fine.  Let me know if there’s anything obscuring the vision or anything.  Great.  I’ll just put that up there.  So to start off, could you just tell me who you are, where you are, what it is you do in terms of your work, your professional background, and maybe something about your experience with games and gaming?
Yes.  I’m [anonymised], I’m thirty-two years old and I work as a teacher at [anonymised] in Egersund in the South West of Norway.  I teach primarily English and Norwegian in addition to a bit of French as well.  And I’ve been working here for almost ten years and I’ve been on and off doing some gaming projects basically.  I’ve got some background in games in terms of obviously playing myself but also I worked for five years for a Norwegian game magazine as a proof reader and games tester basically.  And then I’ve also done some translation work for – on a few computer games.  Most noticeably perhaps the Fifa series, I worked as a freelance translator for six years for different types of organisations, companies that dealt with video games.
And as such I didn’t really expect to be able to use games as my profession, as a teacher, but I have come across quite a few teachers that use games and I was more interested in getting to know how I could use that in the school setting.  So I started off by playing a bit of Stanley Parable along with my students, which is a philosophical game I guess.  Then I’ve done some studies as well, I’m doing a Masters degree now on games and critical literacy.  So I’m trying to figure out whether or not games can help students think critically and help them approach mainly literature in a critical sense.  By – what’s the word – trying to help them break through the barrier of classical literature basically.
Okay, through a games based approach?
Yes.  So I use some games in the classroom setting and I’m looking to understand or examine whether or not it can be of any assistance in terms of developing a critical literacy.
That’s very interesting.  So in a sense you’ve come to this interview with various hats on.  You have an educator’s hat, it sounds like you’ve been involved in the development side as well.  As a gamer yourself, I presume would you define yourself as a gamer as well?
Ten years ago I would.  I would probably describe myself as a casual gamer today.
But what’s the change that’s taken place then from gamer to casual gamer?
Oh, kids (laughs).  I haven't time to spend that much time on games now.  And then because of that I think I’ve discovered some games that allows you to and spend an hour on or for that matter fifteen minutes on, because there are games that deal with a single topic in a limited space of time.  They’re often also useful in a classroom setting as examples of various elements that you can find in for instance literature.  So by giving up the heavier games I’ve come across some indie games or independent games that can be used, I think they can be useful.
In an educational context.  Are there any particular titles that come to mind in that sense or types?
Yeah, I mentioned the Stanley Parable, I use that a bit.  I’m thinking of using a game called Papers, Please which is also interesting in school setting.  I have used Gone Home, a game called Gone Home.  That’s a sort of – I use it as a parallel for reading a novel basically and unravelling a story.  I’m mentioning a few titles here, I don’t know if you’re familiar with those?
Yes, I have some familiarity with some of those, particularly Papers, Please, but we might come back to that.  We’re going to talk about ethics later on so that’s a very interesting example.  
I’ve also used a game called – it has a magnificent title, it’s called Dr Langeskov, The Tiger, and the Terribly Cursed Emerald: A Whirlwind Heist.  The title is almost as long as the game, the game takes about fifteen minutes to complete.  It deals with a metanarrative aspect of gaming.
That’s interesting, yes, we’ll have a look at that in looking in terms of the educational aspects of games.  So it seems, if I gather correctly, you were saying that these sorts of perhaps casual games or shorter length games seem to fit in in an educational context a bit more easily.
Yeah.  Because obviously you do have often a limited time in dealing with school basically.  Kids are jumping from class to class and we have to make the most out of the time we have so we’re not going to be able to spend twenty or thirty hours on a game.  So that’s the advantage of independent games that often take up less time.  Some of them can be played episodically so you can stop playing and then come back to it later on.
We’ll talk about some of those restraints and potentials specifically in the educational sector in a moment perhaps.  So we’ve just been through the Games and You section, your background and your experience with games, both as a player and developer if you like and an educator.  These are some of the aspects we’re looking at.  In terms of different types of games, so you’ve mentioned some that could be defined I suppose as serious games do you think and some as entertainment games?
Yeah.  The serious games part is I guess you’re referencing James Paul Gee here, by [0:12:18] games.  
Yeah.
They would definitely fall into that category.  And then obviously if we take into account gamification as well, then you can talk about apps for instance like Kahoots, Quizlets.  I don’t know if you’re using that into this setting, but that would also be a games – I would say a games approach to education I guess.
So you’ve used that in your teaching?
Yeah.  We’re proud of Kahoot because it’s partly a Norwegian invention, right.  (Laughs)  Entertainment games is a bit difficult to define because that really depends on how you perceive the game as such.  But if we strip away all the learning from it, if that’s what can be defined as entertainment, then obviously I’m not using it.  But they are in a sense entertaining.  For my project getting kids to appreciate and being able to break through the barrier of literature then obviously a game that’s serious can also be entertaining if you manage to see it for what it is I guess.  
You wouldn’t have a strict let’s say border separating these two entertainment games and serious games perhaps?
I’m having a lot of trouble reading G in that sense, because the serious games I’m not really sure how – what it can be used for as serious games as such, because you’re drawing – or he’s drawing perhaps a line there that’s not really helping you, if you understand what I mean?
Yes, I understand what you mean.
But, you know, yeah.
So it’s not something that you necessarily relate to that strict distinction between one and the other?
No.  I’m using a term in my papers at least that comes from Norwegian called a Espen Aarseth, he has used the term ergodic games.
Sorry, could you repeat that name again?
Ergodic.  The name is Espen Aarseth and he has coined the term called ergodic for games.  And I would probably have to come back to the meaning of it or we could have a look as we speak, but I think that’s more of the approach I want to take here.  Obviously serious games is a functional term because you can take away games like [fruit bowl 0:15:47] games and stuff like that and say that they’re not really relevant for an educational setting.  But then again, you have a game called The Walking Dead and there are some teachers in Bergen, Norway, who use The Walking Dead as part of their ethics class.  That’s obviously a game that was developed for entertainment obviously, but it deals with some ethical issues and choices they have to make, so they use this game in the serious sense if you will.
In terms of impact you’ve mentioned you’re looking to apply games for things like critical literacy in secondary education.  Are there other areas of impact that you’ve seen in the application of games in education?
Well, I mentioned I have kids.  My eldest is six years old and his school is using games for Maths education.  So he’s doing his Maths homework as various types of games online.  And as far as I can tell it’s an effective way of motivating, having kids learn in different types of ways I guess.  But I don’t know if that was what you were asking.  I’ve seen it in Maths sense as well.
We’ll take that as cue to move on to more specifically with games and learning, we’ve now shifted to the second theme if you like in terms of games and learning.  So you’ve mentioned some outcomes in terms of let’s say disciplinary learning or literacies, Mathematics and so forth.  But you also mentioned motivation and other things.  So you see a sort of wider scope in terms of competencies for example, soft skills.
Yes.  If I think back to the game that I use as a reading exercise, I’ve used Gone Home, are you familiar with the game?
No, I’m not.
It’s a game that deals with a person coming home from holiday and they find their house and their family – the house is empty and the family is gone.  They have to unravel the story by looking at various clues, like various letters and notes and stuff, to find out what’s happened with their family.  And it’s almost like reading a novel in the sense that you have to pick up on clues that are hidden in plain sight.  You can find a letter that indicates that something has happened and then you have to interpret it yourself.  
And in terms of motivation and learning, I noticed that my students can often reflect on what they learnt without me having to ask them.  They’re almost doing a literary analysis by themselves on their own accord.  So they’re doing it and then I tell them afterwards, what you just did now, what you said, what you did in terms of reading that letter and trying to figure out what happened was basically the same as what we’re doing when we’re reading a traditional novel in a book.  
So I guess that motivation, or internal motivation, games can often help by just providing a setting in which students can make assumptions and they can do interpretations without having to relate to traditional school setting.  Because often I tend to see that often students are discouraged by the mere school setting.  If you give them a book then they’re transformed into a school setting that says, I’m reading a book and my teacher expects something from me.  And games will often be a more free zone if you will.
And you also mentioned direct, about it being direct and having direct access to these sorts of activities.
Yeah.  Obviously they’re easily accessible and games can be picked up at any time, they’re right there in front of you.
You mentioned a number of added values that the use of the game can have, in that case for learning and education, what about limitations?  Have you found anything on that side?
Well, obviously the students need to be accustomed to dealing with a computer I guess.  Some students will retract or lean back and say that, this is not for me, and then obviously that – when we’re doing games in class, we often have games on a big screen and then one person is playing and the rest of the class is supposed to pay attention and then we’ll discuss what happened afterwards.  If someone has an aversion to gaming and games as such, they’ll often just retract and retreat or say that they’re not really interested in this, this is not for them, etcetera.  
It’s the same mechanism as happens with novels as well.  Students will often say I’m not really into reading books, this is not for me.  It’s the same basic mechanism.  But it also happens with games, so games, they’re not really a solution to that sort of mechanism, obviously you won't always be able to motivate an entire class for instance.  So that’s a limitation.  Obviously the technical bit is also a limitation, especially for games that require a lot from computers.  But I’m not really using those games for my purposes.  I’m using more lighter games, I’ve never really come across that yet, but that would obviously be a limitation.
We’ve been discussing games and learning, we can have a look at the next slide with some of those keywords that came up regarding games and learning.  You’ve already mentioned the different types I think and the motivational factor involved and how it can cover up to a certain point the different sorts of learning.  In terms of impact, you talked about some things, about some attitude and knowledge and skills.  What about the collaboration and competition area do you think?
We’ll have to come back to gamification.  Using tools such as Quizlet and Kahoot will encourage both collaboration and competition.  They have – Quizlet has developed a module called Quizlet Live.  Are you familiar with Quizlet?
I’ve heard of it, I’ve never had hands-on use of it before.
It’s basically a vocabulary drill website/app.  And then students can practise different words or definitions, etcetera.  And then compete using different games on the website.  In addition there’s a Quizlet Live function that will put students in groups and they have to cooperate to figure out which term goes where, so the collaboration, competition is highly motivating in that.  And also I’ve tried to use Quizlet for vocabulary training in English and then we did a couple of tests.  On the first test we used Quizlet and the students had to reproduce the words they were supposed to learn.  Then we did the next test where we didn’t use Quizlet and the difference here was really noticeable, because students did a lot better on the mechanical vocabulary drill part.
I mentioned Kahoot, it’s also highly competitive.  But for the games that I’m using, the more serious games, the competition bit isn't really that apparent if you will.  Obviously we can use collaboration in the sense that we discuss interpretations of what’s happened.  We can use that.
Great.  I think we’ve covered that quite well in all of those aspects.  We can move on now to the next theme, general theme, which is about games and the individual.  Thinking in terms of what sort of impact, effect, in all senses games might have on the individual.  What are your thoughts about this, about how they impact?  You’ve mentioned a few things about different individuals reacting in different ways, more or less motivation.
In terms of what the EU is looking for – or the OECD is looking for in future skills for future EU residents, obviously a sense of being able to use digital tools is important.  And then also critical thinking, ideas of democracy, etcetera.  And then as an individual playing games the way I see it obviously you can try to – an individual will probably be able to develop a sense of self perhaps or a sense of being part of a larger community if they’re playing games.  But I’m not really sure if I’d like to conclude, because that’s such a big – talking about individuals in this sense is really – it’s difficult I guess.
To generalise?
You could probably specify this a bit.
For example there are some comments that are often heard in the press for example, often negative things about how games might affect the individual, have you ever come across those sorts of comments?  Or had to deal with those comments as a professional in any way?
Not really.  Well, no.  It’s been a few years though because we did have – obviously we did have a terrorist attack in Norway a few years ago in 2011 and as part of that public debate the issue of games was brought up because the terrorist himself was playing World of Warcraft.  I’ve often countered those comments by saying that all terrorists eat bread and drink water as well.  Obviously games will affect people – they might also affect people negatively and that goes for probably most cultural expressions as far as I can tell.  It’s not really an argument to ban games – it is an argument for age rating them.  Obviously kids shouldn’t play games designed for eighteen year olds, but yeah.  
But in a positive way I think the games can help create individuals who can think about themselves or see themselves and their own identity from a different perspective.  Because they can play roles, they can play games when they can test hypotheses in a safe environment, right.  And they can try to play different roles and then see how they affect the way people react around you.  
A good example of that is one that James Paul Gee is using as well.  He uses tutorial parts of a game called Tomb Raider, where you are abordent if you are not being obedient to what the tutorial says.  The tutorial part says you have to go this way.  Then as Lara Croft, the main character in this game, she is a notorious anti-authoritarian figure.  So if you play by her rules and you’re not obedient you’re abordent in the sense.  So you can play out that non obedient part in a safe environment and see what happens and then you can go out into the world and figure out, okay, do I want to stay obedient to the rules around me or would I like to be critical for instance to what’s in the press.  
That’s really interesting.  We’re going to perhaps mention things like identity and social roles a bit later on, so that’s very interesting.  Just to have a look here, we’ll move on to some of the keywords that were mentioned about games and the individual.   You’ve mentioned things about some of these cognitive abilities in terms of tension, problem solving, I think you mentioned talking about the educational context and certainly about the engagement.  Physical activity is one part and addiction or other areas that are mentioned both positively and negatively.  Have you had any thoughts about those?
Yeah.  All students should be aware I guess that everything comes in moderation.  So physical activity is also something that should be – to me, I’d like to see school communities organising physical activity every day but we’re not really using enough resources on it, at least not in Norway.  But then again physical activity is also something that’s being gamified if you will.  There are different apps and different tools that you can use that help track progress as well.  So the games part is also entering into that area of physical activity.  But yes, definitely we’re becoming a more and more overweight society and obviously everything should come in moderation.
Then we come to addiction.  We see kids in school every year that have issues dealing with their different – obviously different types of addiction, but when it comes to games I have kids coming in in the morning, they’ve stayed up all night playing, they had perhaps an hour’s sleep.  Then they come to school and that affects learning, they might as well go home because they’re not going to learn anything from having one hour’s sleep.  So addiction can probably – well, it is a part of the issues that we have to deal with in school, but more in a general sense I guess.  But we talk about using games and then the risk of addiction, was that the question here?
In the what of addiction, sorry?
Are we talking about for instance if using games in school might trigger addiction?
Ah, trigger, well, what do you think?
The games I’m using, I don’t really see them being addictive in the sense that you might normally associate the word with.  I know some teachers that use Minecraft for instance or World of Warcraft, those games are notorious for being addictive and then as a teacher you’d have to obviously have a plan for dealing with that, if that issue comes up.  And then probably if you’re introducing the game to a class for instance there should be some sort of follow-up in terms of the risk of addiction on kids. 
So some mediation—
I guess, yeah.
In relations with the family as well I guess, as you were mentioning about the kids showing all the signs of addiction?
If you’re using it on a larger scale, if you’re thinking of using games in terms of a whole school district or – yeah, or an organisation, then there should probably be a plan for whatever issues might come.  Addiction would obviously be part of that plan.  But that would be on an organisational level.
We’ll come back to the organisational level in a little while.  Let’s move on now from games and the individual and go on to the next theme, which is games and ethics.  You’ve already mentioned a few aspects of ethics and games, you were talking about Papers, Please which is a very, very interesting example of a game dealing with ethics.  Also the Gone Home as well.
Definitely.
And Walking Dead too.
I mentioned earlier that games can be a safe environment to test various hypotheses and to understand different types of reactions to behaviours as well.  So by using games as sort of a real world simulator then students can have a safe space – or space, I shouldn’t really use the word safe space – at least a space to test out hypotheses and then talk about them afterwards.  Then that is often a good way of initialising a conversation about ethical issues.  I guess classical literature is doing the same thing but it’s often more difficult to relate to for kids, at least if we’re talking about old literature.  So as a conversational kick starter I guess you can use games to start off talking about ethical issues and then show how this has probably been a part of for instance Western culture since the days of Aristotle and then go back and see the Ancient Greeks talked about this as well, right.
Exactly.  So as well as let’s say ethics as you said as a conversation starter or a way of exploring ethical issues there are also a number of concerns circulating as well, which I suppose you’ve come across yourself about ethical aspects?
Not all games are acceptable to use in a classroom setting.  There are games that are on the fringes of what’s acceptable as ethically sound and as a school community obviously we’re not going to use all types of games for all purposes, that wouldn’t be really feasible I guess.  There’s no real control of what’s being used.  Obviously I could probably bring any game into a classroom and then play it and the reactions would come when the kids went home and talked about it with their parents.  But as for now, we don’t really have a system for quality control when it comes to what games are possible to use and what games are not.  
But the example I talked about where a couple of teachers in Bergen are using Walking Dead is an example of – they’ve talked a lot about ethics because this is a game where people kill zombies.  So it has a few – well, obviously quite a lot of violent scenes in it.  Before they start playing that game they’re doing a preparation part where they talk about ethics and then these kids are allowed to obviously turn their heads if they don’t want to participate in some of the parts.  But the ethics part is also dealing with different types of difficult choices that kids have to make.  
So as such, as teachers and as school administers and school districts, we should really be aware of what types of games we’re using.  But then again we should probably also know that kids obviously consume this type of entertainment on their spare time.  So in a school context might actually help understand what types of learning situation, what we can actually learn from this in real life, if we bring it into a school context.
You mentioned before something very interesting about identity, trying on identity, stretching identities and so forth.  There are a lot of comments, some comments made about identity in games and ethics, the way identities are portrayed or are somehow supported or fostered through games.  Have you had any concerns about that or any situations where that has become apparent?
I don’t really think so.  Because the games I’ve used what we talk about is mainly – we’re mainly relating it to I guess ways of telling stories in classical literature.  So we’re talking about literary devices for instance.  As for the game Gone Home I talked about, we kind of get to know a person who is in the process of coming out as gay and then that game is for some really a part of – they can relate to that sort of pressure, not in a – in every type of way being a teenager that can be a space where they can deal with or they can identify with issues that are apparent in teenagers.  And then I don't know.  I guess when it comes to some games that are more the violent type of kind, adopting an identity is obviously a risk.  The most prominent example would probably be Grand Theft Auto games.  But I haven't really used that game in the classroom setting so I’m not really sure if I can bring anything to the table right there.
Good.  Let’s move on to the next part and see some of the specific keywords that have been brought up with games and ethics.  You mentioned violence and the aggressivity side of it and also about the identity some parts of – things like gender and age and race in portrayals.  There’s also monetisation in terms of the financial side.  Has that ever presented itself to you?
Not as such.  Game developers, developers of gamification apps are often trying to push their contents, but especially the gamification apps that are emerging, they’re actively pursuing clients obviously.  (Laughs)  As such we as a school district don’t have the funds to sort of play along right there.  So it’s not been an issue so far.  On the other hand I tried to – when trying to get a hold of copies of the Gone Home game I contacted the studio, because I know they have school licences you can buy for free.  Instead of buying school licences they graciously sent me free licences, so as far as the indie developers go they are more than happy to have people play their games and they’re not really into making that much money off them.  
But that will obviously be an issue if games are an integrated part of education, or if they’re becoming an integrated part of education, then that will be a big, big business.  It already is a big business and it will be a lot bigger and then we have to take into account the fact that making money from games or trying to tailor games for an educational purpose will be an even bigger part that we need to be aware of obviously.  I see that you included social equity and inclusion as well here.  Those are interesting keywords when it comes to ethics, because they’re part of the general part of our curriculum, we’re teaching social equity, we’re teaching inclusion on a general basis.
Content level.
I’m not really sure if my games are relevant for those, but then teaching kids about democracy and being a citizen in the world and in the EU and in their own countries, then I don't know, there might be games that help with that as well.
That’s a very good cue, we can move on from games and ethics to the next general theme, is games and society.  That brings us very nicely into that area.  You’ve mentioned some of the possible let’s say added value of for example people being able to see themselves in terms of society through games.  So you see that as a positive aspect of games and gaming, I would say.
Yeah.  I haven't been able to try it yet, but as far as games and society go, there is a game called Civilization and there’s another one called Democracy I think.  Which again help by having students put into a situation where they can choose, they can make choices on behalf of themselves or on behalf of a community that impact the way a community works.  And they can see how different choices have different effects.  And again, it’s a space for them to test different ideas about the world and come back and talk about them, and that’s what we want basically, we want students who are able to ask questions.
Sure.  Do you see that as a potential let’s say outside of the strict educational context that we’ve been talking about, in terms of society in general, do you also see that as a potential for games?
Oh yeah.  Because being able to reflect on different experiences and different choices in games can also help – that’s my hypothesis at least, I think that is something that you can use when you come back into the real world and you have to deal with different ideas about different world views that are competing constantly in the world.  So taking a position in the world as a citizen is – doing that it’s vital to ask questions about what’s going on around you.  I think again using games as a simulator for the different types of choices, then I think it’s easier to relate to that rather than just discussing it on a theoretical level.  You can interact with, you can be a part of the experience yourself, and then that will potentially give a deeper insight into how you feel about different aspects of the world around you.
Do you see that as – they’re very big general themes towards games and society, so to continue at a bigger general level, do you see that as a cultural impact as well?  As a potential cultural change as well as social one?
On what level would that be in terms of – you’re talking in terms of Europe now or—
We could take that.  Some people talk about games reflecting a certain culture or idea of culture or whether that’s limited or expanded or focussed in some respects.  Do you feel that there are tensions there or potentials?
Yeah, I think the potential, but obviously it’s really, really difficult to conclude by saying that just games in general can reflect a certain culture because games are parts of different sub cultures and they reflect different world views and stuff like that.  But if you talk about a general games culture if you will, then I guess I think games are potentially helpful in creating – developing citizens who are able to ask relevant questions, who are able to solve problems by looking at different types of solutions, rather than just complaining about the problem itself.  Because doing that in a game will get you nowhere.  
So in terms of developing citizens that are aware of their surroundings and able to do something about what’s going on in the world then games are – they’re doing that on a general level today, because you’re not getting anywhere by not doing anything in the game and that’s – obviously the EU and the OECD wants citizens who are active and—  Is this making sense?
Yes, I understand what you mean.  There’s in a sense helping to develop to foster active citizenship and positive attitudes to citizenship.
And that’s the expanded parts of literacy, right, so it’s not really just about knowing how to read anymore it’s about being a part of a global community if you will.
I’ve just put up some of the keywords for games and society that have arisen.  Perhaps you could, looking at games related innovation, that perhaps that could be an aspect of the active citizenship that you were talking about?
Yeah.  Definitely.  When it comes to innovation that’s again related – I can only – the first thing that comes to mind is that communication on various government websites have been impacted by games as far as I can tell at least, in the sense that they now try to make it easier for people to move through the red tape.  In terms of making websites more clickable, you have easier – language is easier and you have this step by step aspect of websites for instance that was not part of the web when it was Web1.0  And that’s part of how we see the world around us as for instance a step by step world in a sense.  There’s different types of innovation going on that has to do with how games are structured, if you know what I mean?
Yes, I understand what you mean.  So that’s a follow-on effect from that sort of structuring and interactivity.
Definitely.
Okay.  So if you think we’ve covered pretty much this area, we could—
Also the social change part you put up there is interesting.  For the games I’m using I also include [0:56:59] Brazilian [manager 0:57:04] who talks about how school education can bring social change in the sense that people can be empowered to be aware of the world around them.  And as such I think games can help – again, I’m repeating myself, games can help by allowing people to understand the world around them by experimenting within a controlled setting, right.  So again, social change is a keyword that I think about a lot.
Great.  We’re just about at the conclusions.  Some suggestions.  Now you’ve mentioned suggestions about to different stakeholders if you like.  You talked about for example the district educational authorities having to perhaps make provisions for policy in terms of addiction.  You mentioned the different types of games that might be used in an educational context.  Have you any other suggestions for other let’s say stakeholders within the gaming galaxy that you think would in some way help to take games and gaming forward?
Well, obviously often it boils down to resources.  As far as I can – if I can make that suggestion I’d encourage schools or school districts to employ gaming pedagogs, gaming teachers, responsible for developing games in a local context.  They have done that in Bergen and I mentioned the teachers there.  They have a resource, they have a part of their employment is developing a games culture.  So if we’d like to develop the games part of education obviously resources have to be spent on having people cultivating that way of teaching.  
Then again, obviously games, I’d just like to make that comment, games aren’t for everyone.  Games shouldn’t be a mandatory part of all types of education.  It is a supplement.  For some it can be a really important and vital part of their classes.  But then again it sort of boils down to your own interest as a person who’s interested in games, like a gamer.  And if you’re not really motivated to start on a games project in a class then that shouldn’t be a mandatory part of a curriculum as far as I can tell, you know what I mean? (Laughs)
Yes, I understand.
Imposing games on a school or a school district or a curriculum is the wrong way of approaching it.
Sure.  I’ve just put up some of the stakeholder groups that have been mentioned and suggestions that have been addressed and that one, the policy definitely in terms of an educator’s – and I suppose researcher’s to a certain extent, about the need for an open approach to leverage the motivation rather than it being imposed.
Yeah.  And then being aware of the fact that signalling that games will be more important also triggers developers to make more or less interesting games for educational purpose.  You’ll get the same thing as you get with other types of games, you’ll have developers developing games that are seemingly educational but then often just end up in them wanting to make more money I guess.  You need to be critical in terms of where you put your resources.  It’s the same as with everything else.
Indeed.  I think that’s just about concluded the general themes that we’ve mentioned, I think we’ve covered that really well.  That’s great.  I was wondering if there was anything else that you’d like yourself personally to add, things that we haven't mentioned or comments about the interview itself if you like?
I mentioned the fact that the approach for implementing games in education, I just want to repeat that, games isn't the solution to anything, it’s more of a part of a set of tools that educators can use in classroom setting.  But then I think it was interesting to talk about these different aspects of games today and I don't know, I feel like I’ve branched out and talked about everything but I hope there’s something in here that’s useful to you guys.
There is a great deal that’s interesting to us, [anonymised].  It’s been a pleasure, it’s been really good and really interesting and yes, we’ve certainly covered a great deal of ground.  We really appreciate also the effort that’s involved in that because we understand that it’s not easy just speaking about such a wide range of topics in a short space of time basically.
I’ve really enjoyed it as well.
Great, fantastic.  Thanks very much.  We’ll end it there.  I’ll just close down the screen here.  What we’ll do is we’ll definitely let you know about the outputs.  As I said, you know that all the output from the interviews is going to be anonymous, but obviously it’s all going to be analysed as part of the activities of the project and put in – let’s say with respect to perspectives of other – well, you’ve got your many hats, but those dedicated more say to developing or to research or to education and so forth.  So there’ll be a comparison of these, so we’ll let you know when that’s available do you get some follow-up.  We’ll also obviously let you have the certificate of your participation very soon and we’ll be in touch and see perhaps if there are – if you’re interested also there might be some opportunities to continue let’s say the dialogue which would be wonderful.  
Yeah, great.
If you’re interested in doing that, do you would be interested in following up?
Definitely.
That’s really good.  It’s a little bit frustrating for someone like me doing these interviews because there’s so much I’d like to actually exchange with you in a sense but in this format I have to let you do the speaking (laughs) and get your perspective.  If we had that opportunity I’d really look forward to it.  Thank you very much.  [anonymised], we’ll be touch very soon.