KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
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Hello, can you hear me?
Hello, how are you?  I can hear you, yeah.
Great.  Okay, so thank you a lot for agreeing to be interviewed and I should be able to…
Also I need to – because you might get a delay.
Oh okay.  Well it’s not the first time, so don’t worry.  I have turned off the video so maybe it will get a little better, the connection.  
[0:00:37]
Okay.  I am sharing my screen with you, are you able to see it?
I’ve just got a face freeze at the moment.
Hmm, okay.
That’s the problem with my Wi-Fi here today.
It’s not a Skype problem it’s a problem of connection, right, so moving to hangouts [0:01:15].
Yes, you see the problem is where I live the broadband speed is not very quick.  Is there something I need to look at while I’m talking to you?
I could send you this so I don’t have to share the screen with you if…
Okay, because at the moment I’ve just got a face freeze of you from about a minute ago, unfortunately.  So do you want to email me something and then I’ll dial you back, is that best?
Sorry?
(Connection breaking up)
I get quite a bit of delay of the—  I can’t even hear you well.  Hmm.  
Okay, so the other thing…
(Connection intermittent)
…call you up to send me what you need to send me and I can look at it on an email?
I sent it on Skype.
Okay.
Oh sorry, this is the Italian version.  Sorry.  The second one.  Did you receive it?
Yeah, I’m just trying to open it now.  
Great.  These are just some power [0:03:00] that we [0:03:01] guide of the interview and not get lost on all the things we are planning to talk about.  Okay?
Yeah.
And then the…
(Overlapping speech 0:03:18)
The interview is about games, as I said, so both about your personal experience with games and what you think the influence of games is on people and on society.  And I would like to start by asking you what is your experience with games, what do you play, how much do you play?  And if you move to the third slide there are some key words that you are free to use to help you collect your thoughts.  You are not required to touch upon all these topics but if you find them helpful you can use them.  
Okay, sure.  So first of all when you say games, what I’m involved in is eSports and my definition of eSports are games of skill and which is always human versus human.  
We mean of course all kinds of video games but if your experience is with human versus humans, of course talk about that.
Yeah, so my experience – so I purely focus on eSports which is competitive video gaming, which is human versus human.  I am slightly unusual in that I am very involved in the organisation of the eSports.  So we set up the British eSports Association and last year we went to Rio during the Olympics and we had an eSports event called the eGames which was eight countries competing in an Olympic like style for medals as opposed to prize money.  So I’m coming from slightly a different background where I’m not an experienced player myself but I’m very much involved in the organisation of events and of an organisation in eSports.
My experience over the last three years let’s say is purely eSports.  I do have two teenage children who are big gamers so personally my physical time that I spend gaming is a lot less than perhaps my physical time of actually working in eSports organisation.  
How did you start getting involved with eSports?
Again it was through my children, just seeing what they were doing and what was the set up and again my background is more in traditional sports.  We own a very famous country club in the UK which is golf and tennis and I also work for the FA at Wembley Stadium and I am a member of Wimbledon Tennis Club.  And my uncle, he ran in two Olympics – he was the British record holder [0:06:58] – so I’m very heavily involved in sport.
And then I saw the benefits of eSports via my children playing these games so I’m coming from a—  In the UK…
(Lost connection 0:07:11)
Sorry, I lost you for a moment.  You were saying in the UK.
Alternative to passive media so instead of watching rubbish tv or social media I encourage my children, in moderation, to [0:07:36] eSports as opposed to playing video games.
And you were talking about how this Olympics styled event is unusual because it is for medals and not for money, so usually the events you organise money prizes?
Sorry, you cut out – so what was the question again?
The question is, usually these kinds of events have money prizes?
Yes.  So the reason why, again we work with the British government and we went with them in Rio during the Olympics and people like in any sport you have events for prize money but you also have events that are for national pride, for your country.  In tennis you have the Davis Cup, in golf you have the Ryder Cup but no one was doing it in eSports until we did it last year at the Olympics.
And do you play games yourself?
No.  I wish I had the time!  (Laughs)  I am slightly unusual – our main business, we actually build and run hospitals for governments.  So we work in a, well we have worked in fifty-two countries and we’ve worked for twenty-four governments.  I’m very much on the kind of organising, administration side of it, also the education side of eSports.  We are doing now a pilot study in a library in London with Westminster Council and we’re working with three universities in the UK about doing some pilot studies into the benefits of eSports.  And again, in moderation and part of a balanced life.
Yes, this brings us nicely to the second part I would like to explore which is the effect of games on people.  You are already talking about benefits of eSports, what kinds of benefits do you see?
In the UK we have actually got a list of stuff.  So [0:10:12] there’s a whole list of stuff that has been proven and we’re working with the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.  Things like communication skills, leadership skills, dexterity is very important, there are future jobs for people who have got good dexterity like surgeons or drone operators.  There are also a lot of intrinsic rewards.  So a sense of pride, sense of acknowledgements.  
On studies that we’re working on, again this is purely eSports and less so video games, there are a lot of transferable skills.  And we’re working now also with the Department of Health and the Department of Education on promoting, in moderation, that this is a great mental well – eSports are great for your mental wellbeing.  But we are making it really clear that there are some sensitive issues which you put there.  Addiction can be an issue, that can be driven for making money but also I think there’s a difference between the addiction of playing a computer versus the addiction of playing eSports because with eSports you’re playing different people which has a different outcome, whereas if you’re playing a computer there’s an element of repetition.  
So we’re really keen in the UK to differentiate between eSports and video games but if it’s controlled or if the people are educated about certain games being good in moderation, that’s part of our aim.  I sit on the British eSports Association and the education play is big.  People are concerned about addiction but the reality is three per cent of the population get addicted to anything and that’s what it is.  I think that you’ve got to be aware of it but as a parent you need to monitor what games they are physically playing, who they are playing with and [0:12:28] and making sure that they are all age related.  You shouldn’t ever let a young person play the wrong games.  In the UK we’re quite specific on age rated games.
I’m interested because you talk about the benefits of eSports if played in moderation and I would like to ask you how do you determine when you go over this moderation and you—
Yeah, that’s a very good question.  I think that’s one of the studies we’re trying to do.  I think if you take the balanced view approach, depending on what age you are, as a child you need to obviously sleep well but you’ve got to do some physical activity, you’ve got to do your school work which is educational.  The area that we are focusing on is in the evening when you can’t be outside playing football, you can’t be doing certain activities and you’ve done your homework, it’s that window of time when you’ve got your free time that, as I say, rather than—
If you did a study of how many children used to just watch tv ten years ago, one could say that they were addicted to television ten years ago because the amount of hours they play whereas if you—  And this is what we are trying to quantify is depending on how many hours children are playing, obviously if they’re playing none stop for twenty-four hours that’s ridiculous, but is it two hours, is it three hours?  If you did an analysis if they were playing two hours a night of chess or three hours a night of chess, would you say they’re addicted to chess?  No parent is going to say to a child, you’re playing too much chess but they would definitely say you’re playing too much video games.
So I think there’s a sensible approach.  Do children historically watch two hours of tv ten years ago at night, maybe they did maybe they didn’t, so it does depend on each child and it depends what game they’re playing.  Because as you know of the kind of thirty different eSports certain games are very [0:14:51], certain games take up to hours to play so I think you’ve got to be aware of it but I think there isn’t enough study yet on what defines addiction.
I get the impression that for you it’s not more about how much time do you play but how much it disrupts other activities, right?
Exactly, yeah.  We’re really pro balance life.  We’ve got some great Olympians who, you know, they play, they physically train six hours a day during their [0:15:32] and then they’ll play three or four hours at night but that’s their – they’re not watching tv for three hours a night so what have you—  I [0:15:41] which would be great as a study would be to do the stats versus watching tv which is obviously a passive media and playing e-Sports.  
And again, I’m just repeating myself, I definitely see a difference between eSports and video games because you are competing with other people and while you’re playing you’re talking leadership skills, strategy, there’s a lot of transferable skills.  And one of the projects the government liked is these kids have got cyber skills, there’s a lack of people with cyber – there’s a lack of cyber professionals so if we can tailor—
I think if a lot of the kids realised that what they’re playing is really good for them they might think this is a bit not as cool as it is (laughs) but I think there are – in my personal view I think certain e-Sports are better for your brain than chess.  And as I’ve said you’ll never get parents saying oh my child’s playing too much chess, no one would say that.  
Yes.  This may be kind of a weird question, but do you see the relationship between eSports and sports because when you were talking about how these people can play, I don’t know, two hours in the evening of an eSports and if they didn’t they would be watching tv for two hours.  So it’s like it takes place of entertainment and this kind of leisure time.  Could it also take the place of traditional sports?  I don’t know if I’m making…
I think in the UK it’s not because I think the position of eSports is very different.  I think in Asia unfortunately I think they’ve made too much of an emphasis on how important eSports is and in Asia they push eSports as [sport 0:17:53] so there’s a mixed message as a child growing up that that is a good thing.   At the very elite level you have to be physically fit to be a pro gamer, the pro teams all have nutritionists, they all have trainers, and they go to the gym every day.  The top elite players are physically fit, they have to be to be mentally fit.  
I think in the UK our positioning is we’re not trying to rival or replace sport at all and if anything it’s a complement.  There’s a very famous female boxer, Nicola Adams, she won gold in Rio I think it was, and she said, “I played chess as a child to get my mental ability to help my physical ability.”  So I think with eSports if you’ve got good mental wellbeing it’s good physical wellbeing as well.  I think they go hand in hand.  So of the big sports organisations that I work with including cricket and rowing and football, they’re seeing eSports as a complement, they’re seeing it as a complement and not a rival.  They are reinforcing their brands like FIFA and [stuff 0:19:01].  
And as I say, I think the key messaging for me with parents is when they said, “Oh my kids play lots of video games” I go, “Well are they playing video games or are they playing eSports?”  And then I go, “What game are they playing?”  Are they playing the rugby or whatever? And I go, “When are they playing?”  And for most people in England we’re sport obsessed, that’s part of our culture, if the kids were playing during the day when they could be outside then that would be an issue.  They tend to play early evening and the night.  Do you track – do you look at twitch and look at the viewership figures it’s not during the day because obviously they’re at school or whatever, but I think there’s a concern and a generalisation but from my experience, my kids they play football, they play rugby, they play tennis, they play golf and in the evening…
Yeah, so that they don’t conflict with each other?
No, exactly.  And a classic one is I had a chat with the chairwoman of English rowing, the Olympic rowing team for England, and she was quite aggressive with me in a good way and she said two things.  She said, “How can eSports improve physical activity?”  So first of all I said, “Well that’s not eSports’ role, eSports’ role is to help your mental activity.”  And then she said, “Well okay, well why are my children playing the same game every night, it’s monotonous.”  And I go, “No, no, no, if you play tennis every day or play football every day you’re physically and mentally not doing the same movement, you’re not playing, you’re doing – you’re playing against opposition so it’s changing how you play all the time.”  
And so I think there’s a lack of education with parents about this.  Obviously if they’re playing until two and three in the morning that’s not good for you and that’s a control thing from parents.  But I think, like anything, if you did bullet points of the benefits and the excitement and the engagement of playing eSports you can understand why children are playing it.  There’s a lot of crap going on in the world, you’re escaping from reality into this electronic world.  So I can see why eSports have become very popular because there’s a lot of rubbish on tv and people – my children, unfortunately, are seeing all this death and terrorism so actually playing something fun is making them feel good.  
What kind of games do you organise events for?
In the UK next year we are doing British Championships.  So my philosophy with the people that we work with is that like any sport you need hero’s so in the UK we think there are around thirty, thirty-five eSports so we’re going to be organising a championship that people can aspire at certain – to be good at certain things.  We’re doing a pilot in libraries, we’re doing some work in schools and we’re potentially rolling out some stuff next year into universities.  Are you speaking to Josh Williams from [0:22:31] NUEL?
Sorry?
Are you speaking to a guy called Josh Williams?
No, I don’t think so.  Let me check, maybe…
He’s very important.  He runs an organisation called the NUEL which is the National University ESports League.  They have over a hundred and five universities playing every Wednesday afternoon.  They have five different eSports titles against each other.  They would be quite useful to talk to.  
Let me see.  Maybe some of my colleagues are interviewing him.  I will have to check.  Anyway, another thing I would like to ask you about, also about eSports, is how is competition [league 0:23:43] in eSports and the collaboration for team based sports?
[League 0:23:53], yeah if you take each game it has its own set up, rights, your own league [0:24:00] they control all their leagues.  Traditionally most publishers don’t really get too involved in events.  In the UK a company called ESL have I think the premiership.  Most eSports events tend to be one off competitions so this weekend, in fact today and tomorrow and Sunday at Wembley Arena there will be about four thousand people watching an ECS event for a Counter-Strike CS:GO.  But that’s like a one off tournament and then Gfinity who are another tour organiser, they’ve just created the elite series and the challengers series.  So they’re doing a twenty week league for eight teams and they did a [drafting process 0:24:46] so that’s quite a good model for you to look at.  Do you know who Gfinity are?
[0:24:55] sorry.
Gfinity, have you heard of Gfinity?
No, never heard of it.  What is it?
They are a tournament organiser in the UK, they turn over about five million.  If you google Gfinity London and they’ve got a thing called the elite series, that’s just started this year so that’s quite an interesting pro level league.
Okay.  I’m Googling it right now!  
And then at schools there’s a thing called the Digital Schoolhouse which is a Rocket League where four hundred schools compete in that.  Sony PlayStation sponsor that,  that’s called the Digital Schoolhouse and that’s a Rocket League.  
Something I would like to ask, how are the teams of players managed in this kind of event because—?
You have professional teams, so in the UK the two main teams - one is called Fnatic and the other one is called Dignitas and they are proper teams.  They’ll have about fifty to sixty players, they’ll have about thirty support staff.  They get paid a salary and then they get a share of the prize money which normally is between seventy-five to eighty-five per cent of the value goes to the players and then the team owns the commercial rights.
Okay, how were these teams created?  Was it…
(Overlapping speech 0:27:05)
Yeah, I mean did these teams form – how can I say, were they formed from the players, they just teamed up and began competing or was it more of a top…
Yeah, Fnatic and Dignitas have got team owners and team managers and these teams have been going for like ten, fourteen years.  They’re proper teams, they’re like Chelsea or Liverpool, they’re proper—  And the way that the teams work,  they’ll have a team per title so some of these teams will have a squad playing [0:27:59] a squad playing Counterstrike, a squad playing Call of Duty.  The organisation tends to just have a team – they play in team eSports and not some so much the individual eSports.  But then they’re properly run and [0:28:18] globally there’s probably around a hundred of these teams at that level turning over millions of dollars.  
And then you’ve got amateur teams where it’s a group of friends come together to play in the tournament.  And that does vary but in the UK the two main teams are Dignitas and Fnatic which they cover different eSport cycles and then you’ll get certain teams that specialise in only one title.  So the problem with eSports is it’s very fragmented and it’s very complex but it’s very easy to find out on the stats and data who are the better players in each country.  So forming teams is relatively easy and it’s just about money.
Uh-huh.  I would like to move on to the next topic of the interview which is about practical application of games.  You work with practical application of video games, these people who are playing eSports earn money and they gain benefits as you said, but I’m also interested in a little bit more in how do you see the relationship of eSports with schools?  You have already said that you collaborate with schools but can you tell me a little bit more about this?
Yeah, so the main initiative that already started this year was this thing called Digital Schoolhouse which is sponsored by PlayStation so they did a Rocket League final.  Do you know the game Rocket League?
Yeah.
You know the game yeah, Rocket League?
I know it by name but I don’t know much about it.
Okay.  So it’s a three versus three eSport where you’re playing football with rocket powered cars.  It’s a brilliant game.  It teaches you defence, attacks, leadership skills, it teaches you how to collaborate with three people, strategy, and it’s a fantastic online learning game basically.  So I think four hundred schools in the UK played and they played the final at the Gfinity’s studio during London Games Week in April which we actually – I think we did, yeah we did a video on that and everything so I don’t know—  Have you looked at the website British eSports dot org, have you looked at that?
Yeah, when I saw your email, yes, I did take a look at that.  I didn’t know it before, actually.
Yeah no problem.  So if you have a look on there there will be a video of that event and there’s a summary of the scores and everything.  And we’re being contacted by schools about setting up eSports clubs like chess clubs and so there’ll be more next year, there’ll be more activity in it.  And again it’s part of our role to educate the schools about what are the better games and how to set up these clubs.  
I would like to ask you a little bit more about how you see the relationship between eSports and physical health because typically video games are seen as a sedentary activity, so they’re seen as potentially harmful in the way of health.  But on the other hand you’re presenting eSports as very healthy and requiring physical fitness, I would like you to elaborate a little more on that.
Yeah I think it’s at what level and, as I say, what is part of this balanced life point of view.  I think at the elite level, the pro level, you have to be [0:32:56], you can’t be a professional eSports player if you’re unhealthy, you have to be mentally alert, physically alert and you have to be fit with your dexterity.  So I think at the elite level it’s not an issue, you know, sport, physical activity is paramount.  
And I think at your lower level [0:33:17] opinion, it’s not the role of the eSports to promote physical activity but it’s to promote mental wellbeing, right?  As I say, everyone’s – in my opinion everyone’s saying oh eSports is damaging sports and I’m going, “No, no, no, no, eSports is great for mental health and eSports is damaging for the tv.”  So if you [0:33:44] but the reality is when these kids are playing eSports you can’t do physical activity, you can’t go [0:33:54], you play football outside in the dark.  So you can’t play tennis outside in the dark.  So eSports when they’re playing it you can’t do sport.  So you prefer your [0:34:14]…
Yeah so it – it’s eating other screen time you are saying?
…it’s that simple for me.  Yeah it’s your recreation time but it [0:34:25] playing the games at night, you know.
Okay.  Moving on, do you see any ethical issues in the use of games and in eSports?  Ethical issues of any kind.
I think on the [0:34:47] there’s been a lot of study about is there a link between [0:34:53] and eSports I think that proves that there isn’t.  You know, if people have mental illness or anger issues that’s not caused by playing video games.  I think the only issues that is a sensitive one is the fact that certain games [lead to be 0:35:13] a bit more toxicity just by their nature which I know that the platforms are doing a lot of great big work to get rid of that.  The other good thing about eSports is it’s gender neutral and it’s disability neutral as long as you’ve got obviously your hands and your arms.  
So I think, personally I don’t think there’s much to [0:35:39], I think the diversity question is because there isn’t the right game for [0:35:43-47] my understanding [0:35:48] study done as a child boys like playing with footballs and toy [0:35:53] and girls like puzzles.  But if you do an analysis of the top eSports the top eSports all have either a football or have a gun or [0:36:08].  There isn’t a fantastic puzzle eSports, so someone’s going to make a lot of money by doing that [0:36:14] because we’re totally open, we’re completely gender neutral.  So personally I don’t see as bad as people are making out but obviously if people have got issues it’s not because they’re playing an eSport or it’s the cause of that.
And are eSports themes usually gender mixed?
The majority at the moment is male, just because they’re the better players.  But there are, globally there are [0:36:53] some fantastic female players.  In South Africa the captain of South Africa is female and there are certain games like Street Fighter where you’ve got significant female players.  And then there’s a great organisation called SKYLLA which is a female only league and they’re not being sexist against men, what they’re doing is they’re like a training camp to develop female talent before then once they get to a certain level then they play in the main tournaments.  But it’s just a safe environment for them to play and learn for some people—    
What you’ve got to think about is that when you play most of the time online no one knows if you’re male or female anyway because you have a [gamers 0:37:41] tag.  So it’s only [0:37:45] so again people love sort of like going on about how sexist it is, there’s no barrier.
But you said about these female teams that it is like a safer environment, so do you believe female players perceive other environments to be unsafe for them or less—?
Yes, sorry, so what I meant by safer is it’s an area where women aren’t embarrassed about their skill level.  So it’s not safer as in aggression it’s safer as in if you want to learn a skill it’s a female friendly league called SKYLLA, [S-k-y-l-a-a], I think they’re based in Germany.  It purely is to help develop your skill set not – it doesn’t—  So when I meant to say for [0:38:39] emotionally [0:38:41] that you’re not going to be frightened that you’ll be beaten.  It’s kind of like a training league as it were rather than worrying that some man’s going to be [0:38:53] it’s very much—  
So it’s probably worth you reaching out to them because that’s a good model.  Because I had an issue I was saying, “Well are you anti men?”  And they went, “No, we just want to develop talents to a good level and release the women after that” which I thought was a great way of doing it.  Because you know you have got people [0:39:16] playing with other sexes.
This thing about gender is a difference between eSports and traditional sports because I mean at the professional level most physical sports are divided between men and women.  So eSports don’t have this kind of barrier I would say.
Apart from racket sports, yeah - badminton is [mixed 0:39:51], it’s [0:39:52] is mixed, so there are sports where you play as mixed.
Yeah.  Okay, moving to the next topic how do you see the relationship between eSports in your case and the society?  Are eSports changing the culture, are they having an influence?
I’m hoping that – we’re doing this pilot study now in a library in London and the two main reasons we’re doing this is one we’re trying to encourage people to come back into a library which is very good as a centre of learning, and we’re doing that by saying when you do homework or revision you need to have a break and eSports is good for you to do that.  The other one is to take kids off streets that can’t afford to play games and give them some confidence and skills and teach them.  
So I think that society, once people understand the positioning and the one thing that I’m personally very keen to amplify is that eSports isn’t all about the money, people aren’t—  You can win money but people are playing it like they’re playing sport, you get some people who play sport for money and some people that don’t.  I think it can show the benefits of what you do at the elite level by winning money.  The winning team last year five guys won nine million dollars, one team, five players won nine million dollars.
That’s a lot.
So that’s at the elite level.  So a [couple of kids there are want 0:41:48] to become a professional eSports player, I’m sure a lot of kinds say they want to be a professional footballer.  But I think once people are educated about the right games at the right age and the benefits of the different types of eSports, which is going to take time, I personally feel that it will have an influence because if we can steer children to playing games which we know will have a long term transferable skills, will teach them online problem solving skills, rather than watching passive media where they’re just looking at the television or they’re watching videos of monkeys fighting or whatever.  If people actually got into the deep thing that actually these games are enhancing your cognitive behaviour, in moderation, part of your balanced life that, I think, will help society.
Okay.  Do you…
I’m a believer, as you can tell!  (Laughs)
(Laughs)  Do you have any other kinds of suggestions to people involved with games and eSports about what could be done to make the situation better and spread the use of eSports which I can tell is your wish?
Yeah, spread the message.  I think if you take one step back and everyone I meet I’m very consistent on my message, on my narrative.  The reality is eSports are different to video games because you’re always playing against a human.  So in my opinion that is like chess, there are intrinsic rewards from playing, fundamentally you are happy playing these games.  On an emotional spectrum playing games, physically or mentally games are good for your emotional state.  
If, as I say, if you look someone in the eyes and said, Would you prefer your child to watch two hours of cartoons or two hours of reality tv or two hours of a programme about, I don’t know, a monkey fighting another monkey or would you want your child to spend two hours communicating a strategy on how to win a game against other people and learning leadership skills and [0:44:38] skills and dexterity?”  What would most people say?  They’ll say, “Well obviously we want them to learn these skills.”
So I think there’s an education [0:44:50], I think that people unfortunately just say, “Oh my kids play on these games, it’s a waste of time.”  And I go, “Well which games are they playing?  How often are they playing?”  I think there needs to be a bigger education about it and it’s fun to play video games so we’re not anti video games we’re just saying that there are some really good benefits in eSports.
Is this kind of education you say should be done, what should be the source?  I mean should it be government initiative, private association initiative in university or—?
Yeah, I think we’re being very open with you - where we’re at now is the government are very aware of it but they just need proof, they need evidence.  So by us doing these pilot studies in libraries and probably what you guys are doing in universities, once we prove that in moderation this is a beneficial thing to do then the government Department of Education, Department of Health will encourage it.  We’ve got to be very careful that, you know, there’s no way that the Minister of Sport is going to support this if they see it’s competition.  But also sporting companies or associations if they start working with it and they complement each other or they reinforce their brand then it’ll work.  
But I think government is important but it’s the academics – the academic process is number one, to get evidence to prove what we need to prove and then there’s a roll out of doing that.  And again, you could go back twenty years thirty years and look at chess, when kids did chess clubs in schools and then you—  Chess has been proved to be good for you.  ESports is the same thing, there’s no difference.
Okay.  We’re moving to the end of the interview and I would like to ask you if there is something you would like to add that we didn’t touch upon.
As I say, I know I’ve said it twenty times, I think there is a difference between eSports which is the competitive video gaming aspect of it’s human versus human playing games of skill.  I think more research will be done and I think if we had this conversation in a year in the UK there’s going to be a total different thing.  Matt Hancock who’s the Minister of Digital, he’s in charge of [overseeing that 0:47:42].  And also you’re going to have I think more recognition about eSports from sporting associations and institutes.  I think you’ll see more of an understanding of eSports.
I will close the interview and thank you a lot for your time and contribution.  
That’s okay.
But before we close the video call I would like to inform you that we are having an [0:48:25] event in Brussels in July nineteen and it will gather about thirty or forty people across Europe which are engaged with games from different points of view.  And I think your point of view could be quite interesting to have there and if you would like to participate…
Yeah, I might actually be in China with our Prime Minister and so—  But I’ll know in a week so if I’m not then yes I would—  Actually there is one [0:49:12] organisation which is interesting and they’re working – there’s a guy in Spain, I’ve just remembered, called Rafael, and he is working to create a legal framework for eSports events and structure in the EEC and - let me just get his name while I’m talking to you because he would be probably worthwhile talking to about what they’re doing.  I’ll tell you what I’ll do, I can’t find it now but I’ll send you an introduction to him but he’s a very interesting guy in Spain on what they’re doing and his approach is very much about creating a good legal structure so that people understand about how eSports can be run and [0:50:15].   
Okay.  So if you can send me his contact via email so – yeah, I would really like to…
Yes, I will be…
…contact him.  Thank you.  
[0:50:30].  And then I’ll know in a week if I’m in China or not so I’ll—  Could you email me the details and the timings of the events?
Yes.
And I’ll let you know next week if that’s okay?
Yes, I will write the email right now.  Okay, thank you.  
Okay great, thank you very much.  
Goodbye.
Ciao.