KEY
Bold:		Interviewer
Regular:		Respondent
[ ]:		Uncertain word(s)

Nice to meet you, I’m Marcello.  Thank you for the time you are giving us for the interview.  I apologise for my accent.  If you don’t understand something just ask me to repeat it.  You do know you’re being audio recorded?
Yes.
And that’s okay with you?
Yes.
I will explain to you how this interview works.  As I said, we’re interested in your experience as a gamer and your opinion about how games influence us.  During the interview I will share these PowerPoint slides, you should be able to see them.
Yes.
They will help us guide our conversation and there will be some keywords which you are free to use as cues to guide your thoughts, but you are not required to follow them.  They are just to help you and it’s not a rigid structure of the interview.  Do you have any questions about the interview?
No,  not really.  If it helps I’m a grad student, so I just finished up my academics and I’m about to start field work so I know research.  I understand how difficult one, it is to actually get people and two, to actually get through everything. (Laughs)
We will begin by talking about your experience with games, so which kind of games do you play?  How much do you play?
Right now in my life I mostly play – I play League of Legends, so like a MOBA, and then on top of that I play visual novels.  Right now I’m playing Persona 5, I play the Playstation Vita games, Danganronpa is one of my favourites.  It’s a lot less – I don’t play so much action heavy things anymore, just because I don’t have time for it (laughs).  Because I have school, I have my field work coming up, so I just try to fit in what I can.  If it’s anything I can pick up and immediately put down and it’s okay if I don’t pick it up for a little while.  Pretty much the only actiony games that I really play right now, I still pick up Skyrim every once in a while and I will play Dishonoured 2.   Then also I have simulators.  So I’ll use like Nintendo Emulator, I’ll play any of those games any day.
And how much did you say you played in a typical day?
In a typical day—
Or a week, I don’t know what’s—
It ranges between nothing to upwards of maybe three hours.  It depends on the game.  Like if I’m playing League of Legends and I’m playing with my friends a game can last anywhere from a half hour to forty minutes and we may play three of those.  Then we’ll get fed up and leave it alone.  Then playing Persona or Danganronpa I could easily play for five hours with that, just because I’m into the story.  If I can sink five hours into a book then I can do the same for a visual novel.  But I’d say definitely less than how much I can actually play in a day, just because I have other obligations.  Sort of growing up I guess. 
You said you played both single player and multi player, right?
Yes.
When playing multi player do you play only with your friends or also with people you don’t know?
I play a lot with people I don’t know.  Like if no one’s online that I know then you have to play with random people when playing League.  On top of that there are people that I only know on the internet, that I’ve never met in real life, I don’t know what they sound like, I don’t know if they are male or female, how old they are, it’s just people that I will consistently play with just because we have similar play strategies.
And do you only play on the computer or do you also—
No, I play on the computer, I currently have my fiancé’s PS4, so I’m using that.  I have a Playstation Vita.  I own every single Game Boy ever made.  I have a Super Nintendo, I have a Nintendo 64, I have a Playstation 2, I have an XBox 360 and I still play all of those.
Very multi-platform, okay (laughs).
I have switched more to PC now, just because I don’t like spending six hundred dollars to just start playing new games.  (Laughs)  When I can just update a graphics card, I’d rather do that than actually have to go out and buy an entirely new system.
Do you spend a lot on video games, if you don’t mind me asking?
I honestly can't say how much I would spend in a year.  I’d definitely say that I spend probably less than two hundred dollars on average in a year.  My computer was an undergraduate graduation gift from my fiancé.  My games I normally get Christmas presents, birthday presents, my friends will get them for me whenever there’s a sale, we’ll get each other games.  But I’d say definitely less than two or three hundred dollars a year.
Since when do you play?  How old were you?
How long I’ve been playing?  Like when I started playing video games?
Yeah.
I was little.  I was probably – one of my earliest memories is being around three, four years old and sitting on my dad’s lap and him showing me how to play Mario on the Super Nintendo.  I’ve been playing video games for a long, long time (laughs), so I’ve been playing for over twenty years.
That’s a lot of time (laughs).
Yeah.
This leads us to the second thing we want to explore.  How do you feel games have influenced you?  Do you think they have influenced you and in what way?
I think there are several ways that I can look at this.  The first thing that comes to mind is the actual physical way that they’ve influenced me.  I feel like my reaction times are a lot better, I feel like I’m good at bimanual tasks.  I’m an occupational therapy student so I like hands a lot.  We were going over different tests that we would use with clients and one of them is a Purdue Pegboard test where we form little assemblies.  So it’s like a peg, a washer, a nut, a washer, and then you have to disassemble it.  And they’re very, very tiny and all of my test scores for that were above average.  I blew everyone out of the water in my class, and I think that’s because I play video games.  It’s because I have really good fine motor manipulation because of that.  And because I play a variety of games, a variety of different tools for that, I have the [Yoshi gun 0:08:32] and everything, I have a Super Nintendo arcade board.  So just different ways that I’ve improved my own hand strength from that.
When it comes to anything social, I feel like I have benefited from it.  Not so much that – there’s this vague misconception that gamers really don’t have any social skills, but I feel like because I play video games I have a better understanding of social skills than anyone else.  I never got into trouble because you won't get into trouble if you just play video games.  My friends played video games so I always had something in common.  I feel like I don’t talk to as many girls as other girls maybe would, because of it, I feel that’s one of the downsides, I don’t get a lot of other women.  I would always immediately go and talk to guys, they like video games, there was something to talk about with them.  I never used to listen to pop songs or anything so I’d never have anything to talk to girls about.  So there’s that.
And I met my fiancé through video games because we went to university together and we were both in the scholars programme.  At my school there’s a scholars and honours lounge and we had a Nintendo Wii that the students convinced the faculty to buy for them.  And we used to play all the games and we had additional remotes and batteries.  So there would always be someone in there playing Super Smash Bros, and when I was a freshman I would just sit there and watch them and then eventually he coaxed me in to start playing with them and everything.  And we eventually started dating and blah, blah, blah.  So I think that video games have been a very important part of my life and they’ve helped me get to where I am now.
I will show you the keywords we were thinking about when we are thinking about this part of the interview.  Something you already touched upon, so you said you benefited from a physical skill standpoint?
Yeah.  And even you say like the cognitive and the perceptual abilities, yes, definitely.  I know that my problem solving is above average, I know that I have really, really good memory for things like numbers.  I used to participate in psychological studies in my undergrad and I made one research a little mad because they were having me repeat back numbers after listening to them and I got up to like eighteen numbers.  And they were just like, thanks for being an outlier, kid!
Is it something you carry outside of video games to?
Yes, definitely.  Attention, I feel that one I’m a little – I can't be counted on that one because I have ADHD.  So I can always pay attention to video games but other things not so much without my medication.  So there’s that.  When it comes to physical activity, I don’t really have an issue with that because I go to the gym whenever I can.  I’d be so aware of that more than anything, not so much video games.  Especially since like I was a kid, when I was almost a teenager we had Dance, Dance Revolution so all of us were always doing that.  Collaboration and competition, that I feel League of Legends comes into that, Halo comes into play with that.  I’m always impressed by how in League you’re on five man teams and you have to immediately come up with some sort of teamwork and communication.  You have to collaborate with four other complete strangers in order to actually win.  Which is difficult sometimes when you’ve got someone that is not a team player, but you’ve always got to try and make it work.  
Competition, I do like the competition of League, that’s why I keep playing it.  Other things not so much.  But just the idea of getting better and improving skill and kicking the other team’s butt (laughs).  Emersion and engagement.  I wouldn’t say that I get emersion into games all that often.  I’m always very centred in real life so I never really lose sight of that.  I never go, man, I wish I was this world instead of this world.  I have my dog, I have my family, I’d rather be here than there.  But that doesn’t really hinder the sort of engagement that I have of games.  Like I can play mostly anything except for certain types of indie games, I’m not into that.
As long as there’s some sort of good graphics to it or they’re the kind of graphics that withstand the test of time I’m okay with it.  If there’s really pixelated graphics I can't play it, that’s where emersion breaks for me.
So that’s an important point for you, okay.
And then addiction.  I know that there are some people that can be very easily addicted to video games.  I don’t feel like I have an addictive personality.  I’m very good at picking something up, obsessing over it for about two weeks and then just dropping it completely and never looking at it again, as noted by the amiibo sitting in front of my face.  So yeah, I don’t feel like video game addiction is a thing for me, I don’t have an issue with that.
But you do think that some people do?
Yes, absolutely.
So the next thing I wanted to explore is whether you can think about practical application of video games.  So using video games not only for entertainment but—
Absolutely.  As an occupational therapist one of the things I look forward to in practice, because I want to be in paediatrics, I want to work with kids, I want to be able to include video games into the intervention plans that I will probably set up for kids.  I feel like video games are something that kids really can't get away from nowadays.  Like when I was a kid you had to have the system.  But now every parent has a Smartphone, almost every kid has a tablet, there’s some sort of video game that these kids are playing.  Already we incorporate video games into practice because we have little games that do tracing and teaching letters, numbers, how to write, things like that.  
There was research at my school about using Guitar Hero for hand rehabilitation and I have so down with that (laughs).  I remember hearing about a musician using that, his hand was either broken or burnt and he did that.  That’s something that I really want to be able to do some research supporting it.  That’s just for the physical application of it, that’s just for look at this poor fine motor control, poor grip strength, learning how to play video games.  When you’re playing a game you’re getting so into it you’re just gripping the controller with all your strength, that’s helping a kid sometimes.  That’s helping them a lot, that’s helping them with their fine motor manipulation and everything.
When it comes to education, I mean, I don't know so much about video games in the sense of things like the computer, on a platform.  Because I remember growing up with the kids’ games that taught you how to read.  To a point, yeah, they did help but at the same time I feel like they were more – like I could figure out the pattern and then I didn’t really have to pay that much attention to the application of it.  I didn’t have to actually learn, I could figure out the pattern.  Right now, I feel like apps could kind of help just because you could change it that way.  It might not be so much of a pattern and it could be a little more learning versus just memorisation.  So there’s that.  I’m thinking right now because I’m using the Duolingo app and I’m practising German and Japanese and everything. 
You touched actually a lot of the things we were thinking of.  You are the first one to propose games for rehabilitation actually (laughs) among the people we interviewed.
That’s my major.  The first thing that I think of with everything.
Of course (laughs).  But also I am interested in your experience with games in school.  Because do you know in your mind what could be done to make them more effective in this regard?
To touch on that, I think that it depends on the population that you’re going to be working with.  If you’re going to be working with a classically normal child, average child, then I’m not too sure how effective they would be.  Or rather I feel that you could make them more difficult and it will go over better.  But if you’re working with a child with severe issues, with severe cognitive delay, anything like that, something that I’ve noticed just working with kids is they, one, no matter how severe a child may look they are always smarter than you ever expect.  I worked with a little girl with a severe seizure disorder and we were trying to teach her how to write, we were using an iPad app.  
And it wasn’t so much we felt she was learning the letters, it was more that she practised it so many times in therapy that she just memorised it.  And it wasn’t helping her as much.  I feel like if there’s a physical application of it in addition to the virtual, that might be better.  But then at the same time if you’re working with a kid with such severe delays they might not have the physical capabilities to actually do the physical.  It’s difficult because it’s so new for therapy that there’s not that many people actually using it outside of those iPad apps.  So it’s a little hard to say where in the world it can go when we’re not really sure where we’re going to be moving with it for the next three years.
I also wanted to ask, are you familiar with the term gamification?
Gamification.  I can't say that I am, but I can venture a guess.  Making things into games when they don’t have to be?
In essence we define it as using game elements outside of a game, a real game.  So for example, Duolingo which you cited is an example of gamification, because you are learning a language and there are some game elements.  Like you accumulate experience you get – that is something that we categorise as gamification.  So those apps that you use to track your running and make it something of a competition with your friends.  What do you think of those kind of applications, since you had some experience with Duolingo?
For me personally it does nothing.  I do not care about achievements.  The only time I care about achievements is if it’s a game that I like.  Like for Dishonoured, Dishonoured 2, Skyrim, I shoot for getting all of those achievements.  When it comes to my FitBit app I couldn’t care less.  I don’t care.  I like that it shows me – when I say I’m going to get ten thousand steps today it shows me how many steps I have.  The aesthetic of it is pleasing but the actual application of it towards me as a person could not be – I am not at the same level as it at all.  I don’t care.  My fiancé cares very much, he’s a completionist, he’s perfectionist about it, so he cares about it.  For some people it works, for me it is not a motivational tool at all.  Because I’m just like, I don’t really care if I get this, if I get it it’s great, if I don’t, whatever.  Like the Duolingo app, I mean, woo, on level 5, I still can't speak it (laughs).  For me I need actual results, not just a screen telling me I did it.
Also I don’t know if you are familiar with the term serious games?
Not really.
By serious games we just mean those games that were not built for entertainment.  You know, you want to use games for learning for example you could use a commercial game, like Portal has been used for example.
Portal has been used?
Yeah, there are some studies about that.  That’s the application of an entertainment game.  Or you could build a game specifically for learning, we would call that serious game because it doesn’t have the primary purpose of entertainment.
Okay, so even if it is a typically entertaining game, if it’s not being used for the purpose of entertainment it’s classed as a serious game?
Not really.  I mean, if it’s built for entertainment and we use it for something else, yeah, that’s an applied game but not a serious game.  If you create it for learning, for example, or for physical rehabilitation, we consider it a serious game.  Which of course can be entertaining (laughs).
But it’s not the primary objective of the game.
Yeah.
That one’s tricky.  I feel like when it comes to a that sort of genre of game you would be looking at a population of probably parents trying to make their kids a little more interested in learning in school, you’d be looking at therapy, working with kids.  You could even push it towards adults.  I think that’s a fine line.  I think that it would have to be very – not only would it have to be very aesthetically pleasing, it would also have to be very quick to judge the skill level and adjust accordingly.  Because it has to fit the just right challenge for it.  If it’s not difficult enough people are going to lose interest in it and if it’s too difficult people interested in it get frustrated with it.  The entertainment value would be a moot point unless you get that just right challenge.
That’s maybe something all games have to do, even entertainment games can be frustrating or too easy and boring.
Yeah, it is.
But you think it is more important in that kind of context?
Yes.  Just because if you’re going to be using it in order for someone to learn something and to gain new skills, that’s incredibly important, the just right challenge is a therapy model.  We say it a lot when we’re coming up with intervention plans for patients and clients.  We want to make sure that it’s challenging enough that they’re going to get improvements but no so challenging that they get frustrated and quit, not too easy that they think they’re not doing anything.  
So I will move to our fourth topic, which are ethical issues.  So if you see any ethical issue in the use of games or even in the message games convey?
I feel that there are people out there that look for things, that look for issues in games that might not necessarily be there.  I feel that there are games out there that you have ethical issues.  The first game that comes to mind is that Steam Hatred game.  I’m not particularly a fan of the development of that, the message behind that.  I get that people are upset about it.  But if you look at it it’s kind of a crappy game and that speaks for itself I think.  It’s a dumb game, that’s part of the problem with it.  But, I mean, it’s one of those things where if you’re looking for ethical issues you’re going to find ethical issues but if you’re looking to just play the game and enjoy the game you’re going to be fine with it.  
When it comes to obvious ethical issues in a game, like not, you know, the developers having ethical issues and conflict of interest and everything, but actually having an ethical choice.  Like Dishonoured you can do the lethal route or you can do non lethal.  I’m a pansy and I always go non.  I try to make myself do lethal and I just can't do it, because deep down I’m like, I don’t want to kill people.  So there’s that.  Other ethical issues I can see pertaining to games like [Earth Infection 0:28:17] make me mad.  Bethesda E3 just had Creation Club.
Yeah, I heard about it.
With credit that you have to purchase and didn’t they learn anything from Steam.  (Laughs)  Don’t put out a AAA game, price it at sixty dollars and expect people to do micro-transactions, I think that’s an ethical issue.  If you like the mods that people are putting out, hire them.  
Did you ever use micro-transaction?
Yes.
I mean, you play League of Legends which has them.
Yeah, there’s micro-transactions.  If I see a skin that I want, I’m just like, how much money do I have?  Yeah, I can afford five dollars.  I really don’t want to grind up the IP to actually get a new champion, they’re on sale, why not?  That, it’s a free game and have sunk so many hours into it that my thought process is, okay, how much money would I be spending on a AAA game?  Sixty dollars, and I’ll probably get like twenty-five hours of game play, just straight game play out of, not just screwing around.  Okay, I can afford to spend this much on a game that I’ve spent this much time on.  So I’m okay with that.
So you think that kind of model is okay.  So a free game which you could buy something?
Yeah.  I don’t like the micro-transactions, I don’t like app micro-transactions, where it’s like, you probably play this game this many times a day because you don’t want to buy the tokens or whatever, you’d rather just waste time.  I hate that.  If I want to play a game I’m going to binge it for a little while but don’t make me pay to do it.  The exception to that is if it’s like an actually well made game and I appreciate it.  And I’m like, yeah, I really like this game, it’s well made, they’re not pushing ads at me all the time, I’ll drop a couple of bucks.  But I will say that I am a member of Google Opinion Rewards, so I get money for surveys that I fill out.  And I only spend that on apps, so it’s not even my own money. 
So you have a kind of a rule to decide how to spend it?
Yeah.
That’s interesting.  
I try not to spend my own money on like micro-transactions. If there’s a skin on League that I want I’m going to buy it because life’s too short.  What are the other options?  Gender, identity and diversity, race.  That I understand that I am a standard white female.  Whatever, take my opinion for what you will, I do not give a crap about gender and race in video games.  I’m playing a game, my character is black, woo, if it’s a woman, woo, if it’s a transgender, woo.  I don’t care.  So if the game itself is good I don’t give a crap about what the protagonist simulated characters are.  I don’t care, that’s not an issue for me.  
I don’t care that in Dishonoured 2 I play as a female versus a male, it doesn’t matter, I don’t see her face, I just hear her voice every so often saying weird little things.  It just doesn’t matter to me, it’s not a priority to me, I’m still going to play the game.  It doesn’t matter.  Violence and aggression.  Games are violent and aggressive.  I feel that for kids that can be impressionable but as an adult it’s fine.  I don’t think that me playing video games has made me overtly aggressive or violent.  I don’t think that that’s really affected me in that way.  Mostly because I know the difference between right and wrong and I can apply that as such.  I don’t need to be violent or aggressive to properly express myself.
That’s interesting.  Because you said that in a way violence disturbs you a little in a game, did I get that right?  
Yeah.  
You said in Dishonoured, you automatically chose the peaceful path.
I know.  That is something where I don’t like getting bad endings in video games, and I know that if I play the aggressive out in video games I’m going to get the bad ending.  I don’t want to see everybody suffer.  I think that’s just who I am.  When it comes to something like League I’m going to murder the entire team, it’s one of those things where it’s like the end, to win, and there’s no reason why my morality changes anything, done.  But if my game is going to challenge me to play one way or the other and the ending is going to be the result of that, I’m going to be like, oh crap, I don’t want to see what the bad ending is going to be and who’s going to die, I like these characters.
So it’s more of a matter of consequences in the game?  Okay.  (Laughs)
Yeah.  Piracy, I don’t pirate games, I don’t care if other people pirate games, what you do with your life is your business.  I think what I do with my life is my own.  So I don’t particularly care if other people pirate.  Do I think it’s wrong?  Sure, I guess.  I know one of my friends will pirate games but then if he really likes it he buys it.  So it’s one of those things I understand why some people pirate games, especially if it’s something like my friend does where he wants to try it before he buys it.  I would hate to spend fifty, sixty dollars on a game, realise I hate it and then not be able to return it and get all of my money back.  So there’s that.
Other than that I understand when they say piracy is an issue, people need to get paid, it’s peoples’ jobs.  Where I work, because I still work in a grocery store, I get mad when people steal things and it’s essentially the same thing, just intellectual property.  Yeah.  so I wouldn’t do it, I don’t care if other people do it.  Yes, I understand that it’s wrong but I also see why people do it.  I just wouldn’t.
What are your question about that?  What do you mean about inclusion?
For example, in the gaming community if you feel there are dynamics of exclusion or if you feel the community can be inclusive.  This I think not completely but is a little connected to the topics highlighted in diversity.  But it’s less about the game and more about the gamers, you know.
I feel like that can sort of be seen in League more so than any AAA game or any game that you would playing on a console, it’s something where you’d see that a lot more in any multi player game versus any single player or story driven game.  I can tell you that when I play League everyone assumes that I’m a guy, the community that I talk to, with my little club that I’m in that we all play with, everybody thinks that I’m a guy named Nick.  I did not tell them that, they all just assumed that based off my username because apparently no one’s ever seen Monty Python.  My user name is NiKnight and everybody calls me Nick, even though it’s the knights who say “Ni.”  
But they all think that I’m a guy and it’s like, “What’s up, brother?  What’s up, dude?”  That sort of thing.  And I’m just like, I don’t feel like correcting you, let’s just roll with this.  When I was playing Halo online, I wouldn’t even play with the sound on half the time, or with my voice chat on, because I didn’t feel like having people not really yell at me because I was a girl but be like, oh my God, you’re a girl, and I hate that so much.  Why are you so shocked that there’s a girl playing a video game?  It’s not the end of the world.
Still in the kind of games you play girls are still in the minority, did I get that right?
Yeah, girls are very much still in the minority.  
Because I was also a little – I remember at the beginning of the interview you said you feel you have video games in common with guys…
Yeah.
…and you don’t talk much with girls.  I mean, not as often as other girls, because you don’t feel you have that in common with them.
Right.
So that’s interesting, because, you know, there have been some statistics about the number of girls playing video games and it’s not that unbalanced. 
I know.
But maybe it is among [0:39:03] of video games, so probably League of Legends is still mostly males.
That’s even reflective in the LCS.  I mean, how often do you see girls in LCS?  I can remember once.  I think the 2016 spot when there was actually a girl on, I don’t even remember what team it was because she hid her face half the time, she had a bandana across her face.  I think she denied letting them turn her camera on during the game because she’s just had so much harassment from the community as a whole.
Really?
It’s unnecessary.  Like people were calling her a transsexual and everything, and so what, who cares?  She calls herself a girl, she’s a girl.  Social justice.  The only thing I can think of with that is Gamergate.  (Laughs)  That was a bad time, my fiancé had a tough time with that.  He was so upset because he just wanted his video game news and he was just getting Gamergate.  I rarely ever apply social justice to video games.  The only thing I can say about it is I prefer not to have objectified in games, which is really hard, but at the same time it doesn’t bug me that much.  I just really don’t like it when they have – if they have a portrait of females that’s really dumb and ditzy then I’m just like, really, you couldn’t have come up with a better characterisation for them?
Yeah, but you are not that annoyed by it I mean?
Yeah.  I’m playing the game to have fun, I’m not playing the game to find issues with it.  That’s just me, I don’t play a game to try and pick out all of the issues and the ethics that they might have violated.  It’s a game, just let me have fun.  
Moving on, we are nearing the end of the interview.  This is probably the most abstract thing in the interview, but how do you see or feel that games influence society?  If you believe they do?
Well, I think games have influenced society a little bit.  I think as a society we have all become more open and accepting of video games.  Like way back when, I remember, oh, you can't play this game, it’s not – I was never allowed to play T rated games when I was ten years old.  So I wasn’t thirteen yet, I couldn’t play a game.  Now you see – here you see in GameStop, you will see a ten year old kid go in there with his dad or his mom and they will buy Call of Duty for them, an M rated game for a ten year old, and then they go and they play online.  That is terrible, I hate that.  
That’s something that I really wish we would go back to the old ways of, you’re ten, you can't play a mature game yet because I feel like that is just poor parenting for one.  That and when I would play Halo a lot, that was one of the things I hated was when there was a screechy ten year old on there and they would just be freaking out about everything.  Like, I am too old for this.  I feel like there’s that, where people are a little more open to games and that can be a good and a bad thing with parents letting their children play games that they shouldn’t be playing with adults.
Then going back to the society being more open to video games, if you look at phone apps, most people have some sort of game on their phone.  I will always yell at my mom when she was like, you shouldn’t be playing video games all the time and I’m like, what are you doing right now, mom?  I’m on my phone.  What are you playing?  Shut up. (Laughs)  I can kind of throw that back in peoples’ faces now when they’re like, why are you playing a video game?  And I’m like, oh I’m sorry, do you have Angry Birds on your phone?  Don’t talk to me about this.  
It’s just I feel like there’s been an extreme increase in casual gamers, phone gamers, people that just sit there and play apps on their phones.  My dad is big on this, he plays a lot of games on his tablet. I generally can't keep a game on my tablet for more than two weeks, or on my phone for more than two weeks until I just delete because I can't take it anymore.  Because almost everything has micro-transactions.  So I just get mad and delete it.
I’m just a little curious though that I have this feeling from both your interview and the interview I’ve done that mobile games are seen as something different from all other kind of games.
They really are.  And they’re just the same.  It’s just on a touch screen.  People do really consider them two different things.  Oh, it’s not a video game, it’s a phone game, it’s an app.  I can download a video game onto my XBox does that make it an app?  So yeah.  I mean, even when – because I know at least on the Apple apps store you can download 999 which is an old DS game.  And you can play it on your phone but it’s a legitimate video game, like Nintendo put out this game, it’s on the DS, I have the cartridge, but someone can download it on their phone and then suddenly it’s an app and it’s not the same thing.  That’s just ridiculous.  
Yeah, I agree, I one hundred percent agree that people seem to think that phone games are not the same thing as video games even though it’s literally all the same elements, you just don’t have – it’s just not as story driven as most video games.  It’s very stop and go.  It’s essentially like playing Minecraft on your computer, like you know the old XP Pinball, kind of like that.  Pinball Wizard or whatever it was on Windows XP.  That’s about all I can come up with off the top of my head.  Oh, cultural changes.
Marketing, I don’t like hook into marketed, I’ve never been a big fan of that because they – now they’re actually saying – I don’t remember them ever saying this before, because the Star Wars Battlefront II stuff is coming out, the trailers for it and everything and now it actually says, in game footage.  Whereas before they would show you cut scene animations which were always beautiful and then you actually play the game and you’re like, this is not as beautiful as I expected (laughs).  That would always make me mad, this is false advertising.  This game doesn’t actually look like this, only five percent of it does.  
I don’t really feel like marketing has gotten more – I don’t want to say malicious because that’s not the right word for it, but that’s sort of like targeted and really persuasive.  I think it’s really a lot more of that, look what we’ve got, play with your friends, versus before like in the 90s and early 2000s games were like, the companies would really push towards kids.  They’d really push towards, all of your friends are going to have this and you’re going to be left out, you need this game, you need this system, make sure your parents get you this system and I feel like they’re really stepped away from that. 
Another thing I feel like the marketing has changed is you don’t see a lot of kids alone playing video games.  When you see the commercials, you either see the video game itself or – for the Nintendo Switch you rarely see just kids playing the Switch, you see adults and kids or just straight adults playing it.  Which I think is very interesting, because I don’t remember it ever being like that.  I still have all the Nintendo Power magazines where it’s like you see two kids on the front playing Super Nintendo or Nintendo 64, it was never marketed towards adults, it was always marketed towards kids.
Yeah, I never noticed this shift, but yeah.
That was a recent thing that I’ve noticed.  Art and games.  I think that some video games are just – they’re gorgeous, and some of the art within the games are just spectacular.  Like I know for one, when I finally move out of my parents and move in with my fiancé, I’ve already got stuff in a cart that I’m going to buy because I want like video game decorations all around me.  Even stuff straight out of games.  I want some of those paintings from Dishonoured that Delilah and Sokolov have made because they are just gorgeous.  And somebody actually took the time to make those and it’s obvious.  
I want some of the posters that are in games.  I plan on making a shadow box, because I own every single Game Boy and I want to make a shadow box out of that and hang it on the wall and have it be like art.  It’s one of those where it’s its own little thing, like you’d never see it in an art museum.  Not yet at least, who knows a hundred years down the road.  But it’s definitely one of those things where people have started taking it and made it their own and used it to really define their lives.  When you walk into their house you see what interests them and it’s almost like making video games into art, they can do that.  I don't know if that’s where you were going with that?
That’s okay.
But that’s how I interpret it. 
Regulation you already touched upon, talking about the control by parents and also—
Also with regulation, I feel like I remember seeing something about – I can't remember.   Can't remember what else I was going to say about regulation.  I know there’s parental regulation.  The ESRB, that could be – I wish there was a little bit oomph behind that.  There’s nothing that they wouldn’t do, but I wish that even if the kid has parent permission I really wish they couldn’t play M rated games.  I think that’s just bad news.
You think it’s too little regulated now?
It’s a fine line.  It’s a very fine line between someone’s own agency and someone telling them, no, you can't do this.  Like you can't – at least here in America, you can't really infringe on a parent’s ability to govern their child’s life.  They look at you with this look on their face like you’re the scum of the earth, like how dare you tell me I can't do this to my child.  And like you could not do that in America right now at all, even though I feel like we should.  I think there’s not enough regulation in it right now but I also don’t see a proper resolution to that any time in the near future.
You don’t see how it could be implemented in the US culture I will say (laughs).
I feel like other people might have better thoughts on that. (Laughs)  
The last thing—  Go on.
I was going to say, now I can say something about the cultural changes, just the whole before I remember there used to be these things where parents were really strict, religious parents, wouldn’t let kids play games, they’re just like, no, the devil will take you, that used to be a thing.  And it was hilarious, like people don’t get Monster because the devil will take them (laughs).  But I feel like there’s a whole culture here in America and probably worldwide that’s become a little more accepting of video games.  For God’s sakes, we have eSports now.  I never expected that to come, even though South Korea has been doing it for ages with StarCraft.  I mean, I never, never expected eSports to take off like it has at all.  And even to have the NBA teams, like the owners of the basketball teams in America buy eSports teams is just mind-blowing.  Like oh my God what is going on?
I didn’t know that.
Yes, oh my God.  Like you know Echo Fox?  The team Echo Fox is owned by Rick Fox who is a former basketball player from the Lakers.  Like what?  And he’s just like, I’m gonna go buy an eSports team.  So he buys an eSports team and he has [Frogget 0:55:04], like, okay, that’s cool.  And then their delta team, their challenger series team, has like the top five strapers.  It’s a brilliant marketing route because everybody loves them, there’s a team full of them, it’s just going to be a [0:55:23] now.  But yeah, basketball team owners are buying eSports leagues and sponsoring them and everything and putting money into this.  It’s just insane how much it has taken off.  [0:55:39] (laughs).  Sorry.  But also, occasionally you will see eSports played in sports bars in America, sometimes.  It’s rare but sometimes if there’s nothing else going on they’ll put it on.
That’s really curious.
I think someone requests it, but I think they’ll still put it on the TV.  Also, innovation in games, I like where games are going and how we’re moving towards VR.  One of the things that interests me as a therapist and gamer is the whole using virtual reality to help people.  One of the things that I feel will really, really benefit people is full emersion, and I feel like that’s really going to help combat veterans and people with PTSD, either in children that have experienced traumatic events, because it will be in a safe environment but they will also at the same time be fully immersed in the experience.  I feel that that can really help them to get over – not really get over, but accept past trauma and move forward in their lives with that.  
There’s been a lot of research on it, I’ve tried to find some, but it’s really hard.  At the time when the research was being conducted video games were not what they are today.  They certainly did not have the Oculus Rift, they certainly did not have the Vive or whatever it is.  
But it’s been a recent development?
Yeah, very recent.  And the research community has not really looked into it enough.  But I feel like the innovation in games is going to have an overlap into medicine that will really help especially therapy and psychology, I think it’ll be good for that.  Especially if they can incorporate smell too, a big one.  I mean, really if you’re in a therapy setting and you’re dedicated to this it wouldn’t be that difficult.  But that’s not something – I can't see it right now or even in the next five years incorporating smell into—
It would be a little difficult.
They’re still working on the whole like being able to move and play VR at the same time.  I also think that’s going to be good too, the movement with VR, I feel like that will help some people.  Because especially people who don’t leave their houses might get some exercise, it depends.  But I’m actually really excited for that to happen because I will totally test that out some more.  I don’t know if I’d ever buy it but I mean, I would like to try that because it’s really interesting to have that sort of treadmill apparatus that you’re strapped to, having the VR headset on.
Have you ever tried VR yourself?
No.  I almost did, I went – do you know what PAX is here?  
No.
It’s the Penny Arcade Expo, Penny Arcade is in [0:59:29] and they have their own little conventions.  They have like three in the US and one in Australia.  I went to PAX East which is in Boston, Massachusetts a couple of years ago and they had the Oculus Rift there for people to try.  But they didn’t tell you right away that there was an app you had to download and sign your name on so you could get on the list to actually get into the booth and try it.  And the line was like wrapped around the Expo hall.  There’s actually a building opening up in my town that has VR rooms, so I’m going to jump on that.  I also have a cousin that has the Vive, so I could always just drive over to his place and use it.  But it’s like a four hour stop and we don’t go there that often.
I’d also like to ask how you see the future of games, also with VR but also outside of VR. If you can make some prediction.
Graphics, it’s going to keep going better which is what I’m looking forward to, because I hate crap graphics.  That’s my biggest pet peeve in games, if I’m going to buy a game I want to be able to one, actually support it so I can see the graphics.  Two, not have any lag and three, actually have a good frame rate with it.  I think that we are going to get closer to things that look like real life, I mean, with the way that graphics are in those regards.  When it comes to the actual content of video games I’m a little bit hesitant about just because everything just seems to be a sequel of another and nobody ever comes up with new and interesting ideas.  You have to sort of look at indie games for that and at the same time most indie games are just basic platformers.  
I feel like when it comes to being innovative with the future of video games, Nintendo is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone, because they have so many different things incorporated and they try different things, versus everyone else that’s just strictly controller/console.  Nintendo’s the only one that really branches out and it’s like, you can take the controller off and wave them around.  If you get these little amiibo things, you can do extra stuff.  But you don’t have to get them, which is nice.  But I got them anyways.  
So you would see that apart from Nintendo there is more progression than innovation?  I mean, graphics get better but there is not much innovation in content and type of games?
I don’t think there are actual innovations.  I feel like that’s even evidenced by XBox coming up with the XBox One apps which is the dumbest name ever, it’s worse than the XBox One.   When they came out with that they were just like, oh yeah, it’s going to be able to support games all the way back to the first generation of XBox.  So you’ve got three generations of games that you can play on it but what is that doing for innovation?  Nothing.  You are taking three steps backwards so that people can still play the same game over and over again and you don’t have to come up with anything new, different or exciting.  So I feel like there’s that.  
Even though Nintendo I feel is a little more innovative with their systems, their actual games and game play are not that advanced or innovative and they’re still very basic – and I wouldn’t say rudimentary but it’s still the same old, same old, there’s nothing spectacular or new about it.  But I also feel like right now there’s only so many ways that you can actually do something.  Like I don’t see how we’re going to currently have a video game where you’ve got to move around and do all of the stuff and not have just the same old, same old.  I feel like once VR gets a little better and they actually have like stationary treadmills or whatever and you can actually move around.  I feel like we’ll eventually have little gloves that we can have on and we can actually touch things and interact that way, versus having to have a regular controller.  I feel like it will eventually get to that point but they’re not there yet obviously.
Moving to the last part of the interview, we talked a lot about games and potential opportunities, potential problems with games, what advice would you give to different kind of figures involved with games to make the situation better?
Parents, watch what your kids are playing.  If you wouldn't play it in front of them don’t let them play it.  I feel like developers need to be a little more crazy and out there and like they really need to step out of the box.  Because everything’s just the same.  I agree that graphics are important, they’re important to me for sure, but actually have like good game play, not just the same thing over and over and over again.  I know I keep going back to Dishonoured, it’s one of the games I don’t play anymore, but the powers and that, you do different things, just like you would use this magical little jet, it’s like a grappling hook, like that awesome.  Why don’t other games have that?  
It’s one of those things where, yeah, I understand that they’re trying to make it more realistic and they’re trying to increase immersion, but at the same time break immersion a little bit and make someone think rather than just get sucked into the game then just play through it mechanically.  They need to sort of – I wish there was more problem solving, I wish there was more interesting problems to sovle rather than just find the missing puzzle piece for this.  Like Zelda’s infamous for that, it’s just the same thing every single time.  I love Zelda, but for God’s sakes do something different.  I haven't played it for a while so I can't say anything about that, but it seems like, pick the little crystal thing and you open the door.  Why?  What’s the point?  That’s dumb, you’re just playing hide and go seek with a crystal.
I feel like institutions, so part of the reason why at my university we convinced the honours longue to buy us a Wii was because it aids in stress relief.  I feel like there could be more of that and I feel like it’s a good way to get people together.  I think it was one of the fraternities on campus would hold a video game night in our student centre and they would invite everyone across campus to come.  I don’t know how many people actually went, I didn’t go because to me my university was more of a communal university rather than an actual place where you would get a dorm.  Like I live twenty minutes away from the university, I’m not sleeping there.  So I wouldn’t go to things past like the end of my last class at three, I would just leave and go home and beat rush hour.  
So I feel like institutions could incorporate gaming and it wouldn’t be as big of a deal as they imagine it would be.  It would probably bring people closer together.  It can help with stress relief, I know I certainly play games to relieve stress, just because there’s too much stuff going on in life, got to take a break from it every so often.
Educators.  This one I find a little difficult just because in class you want kids to be learning and you don’t want them distracted by the fact that it’s a video game so much.  But I feel like games can have a benefit in learning, so long as again they can't be memorised.  They would have to be randomised, you would have to be able to really think rather than just mindlessly click.  That’s part of it.
Players calm down.  Stop insulting.  I feel like there’s not a lot I can suggest for players just because everybody does their own thing.  It’s their thing and I can't police them, I can't tell them, you can't do that.  I mean, it’s their choice whether they do that game or not, it’s not mine.
Actually I find it really curious that up until now I’ve interviewed six, seven or eight players and everyone complained about the online community.  It’s a very recurring topic.  Even with people who do play multi player games like you and enjoy it, but still there is this, I don't know, dissatisfaction with the typical interaction online.
I’m getting really into the game and I’m like, hey, good luck, have fun, and then immediately I get back, kill yourself.  Come on, grow up, don’t be an idiot.  One of those things.  I’m the kind of person I try not to let them get on my nerves.  I try and do like kill with kindness, that’s just because that’s how I was raised.  I am really only that way online, in person, you see me in a car I’m not the same.  I’m an angry driver but I’m not an angry gamer.  Go figure.  But it’s just one of those things where the online community does suck, but the online community sucks for everything because people are jerks and you can't fix that.  
And it only takes a couple of people that are really, really – I have to – the only word to describe them is salty.  I feel that’s something that gamers have taken and it means something more than just like, I just took a bite into this pretzel and it’s way too salty and I need a drink.  No, it’s now a way to describe someone as salty.  But it only takes a few people like that to just ruin something.  You could have a really good discussion going and someone says, that’s stupid and your dumb.  Thanks.  It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bunch sometimes.  And I think that there does need to be a little bit harsher punishment for that.  I feel like when I report someone in League is something done right away?  No, I don’t get the notification that they’ve gone to tribunal often enough.  I’m glad that League does have a tribunal system where they do take reports into account.  But sometimes they only get a chat ban.  You know, maybe they need [an IT 1:12:00] ban for a while and they need to just step away and smell the roses and just calm down.  
I know that just because of who I am and what I study whenever I see people being really stressed about it, I’m just like, why don’t you get some essential oils and just keep them there.  Have a little bottle of essential oils and just smell it every so often and just calm yourself and take a sensory break.  I’m all about sensory breaks.  And I try to help people online come up with strategies to prevent them from tilting.  Or when they’re getting tilted in a game, do this and this and shake yourself up a little bit so you’re not getting there.  I feel like if games could have a section of that, like you’re getting mad at the game, you can do this to relieve that stress and do something else.  Like I have essential oils at my desk, I have a little fidget cube thing.  I do stuff whenever I can to calm myself and keep myself from yelling or getting really upset.  There’s strategies I can use to avert that and not just even get into that situation.
One category of people that is missing from our slide actually is therapists, what would you say to them?
There’s a couple of different things that I think of when I think of therapy and games.  One of the things I think about is starting all the way at the top and looking at eSports.  Do eSports employ therapists?  If not they certainly should, they should have hand therapists.  Think about how many hours these people put into games, a lot, it’s a full-time job for them so they’re doing forty plus hours a week playing a video game.  Those poor hands and wrists.  Are they using proper body mechanics, are they actually sitting in the chair properly.  What is the level of their desk to the chair?  It’s ergonomics and they need to make sure that someone’s there to check them out and make sure that they have proper positioning.  I can't tell you how many times I’ve watched eSports, like the LCS, and I watch how these kids sit.  And I’m just like, you’re going to get carpal tunnel.  Your life is going to be ruined.  Sit better, stop—
You’re making me self conscious.
It’s just like, stop sitting stupid. (Laughs)  That’s what I care about.  And then just in general there should be a sensory strategy for video gamers that have issues regulating their emotions.  Because through research we found that sensory regulation is just so crucial to emotional wellbeing and they’re very much intertwined.  If you ever have the opportunity to take a sensory profile do it, because it’s so interesting to see what it is that personally affects you and what changes your level of awareness and alertness and what it is that you do either subconsciously or consciously to calm yourself down when you’re in the middle of something frustrating or when you’re nervous about something.  I’m a fidgeter, I fidget with everything.  It’s part of my ADHD is I fidget a lot but it helps and it helps calm me.
And that’s the reason you have the cube?
That’s the reason I have the cube, yes, I thank one of my co-workers for getting it for me.  But yeah, it’s one of those.  And then trickling down a little bit further with therapy actually using video games in the therapy setting as an intervention, sending a kid home with a home exercise plan that they’ll actually complete because it’s play a half hour of Weevils a day, something like that.  You take into account what the kid has at home, they’ve got an XBox, go play Viva Piñata or whatever it is, play some kid friendly game that you have, whatever in the world it is.  And even like some of the problem solving games, like the apps on your phone where you have to unblock the stupid little orange coloured brick or whatever, those are great for kids that are spatially unaware.  
And that’s something, I like thinking that video games are a way to actually make kids do their therapy homework, because it’s something that motivates most kids and they’re interested in it.  And who knows, they might go above and beyond and play even more than they were supposed to.  Although their parents probably wouldn't be happy about that but I would be.  And then even using video games for kids with severe mental issues, severe cognitive deficits and even severe mental deficits, I feel that’s something that should be expanded upon.  I don’t know if in the future I will be the one to do that, maybe.  But I feel like there needs to be more research done on it and the benefits – proven benefits of it not just expected benefits, before it can be properly implemented into the field.  
One thing that I think research should go into as well is – I can't remember the word – access.  Access for video games, especially for people with disabilities.  Like what if someone is paraplegic and they can only use their eyes?  Or a sip and puff, you know.  How in the world are they going to be able to play video games?  Who knows, maybe they want to and they’re not content just watching YouTube videos of someone play it, they want to experience it for themselves.  I went to the occupational therapy conference in March/April, there was a booth there that modified controllers so that people with disabilities could play video games.  And they would hook it up to a sip and puff, they would be able to modify it for amputees.  It was spectacular what they were doing.  And this is just a random group of guys that are just like, we have the skills, we could do this thing, let’s do it.  Just for fun.  
I feel that’s another area of research there could be.  And just seeing how people with disabilities actually have access to video games and see if they know/can.  There’s also – do you know what the maker movement is?
No.
That’s with 3D printing.  There was also a booth at the OT conference where there was someone from the maker movement that I spoke with, because I’m interested in 3D printing.  And he was telling me about how they have modified Smartphones and tablets for people in wheelchairs who are paraplegic that use sip and puffs.  That way they can actually use Smartphones and tablets and control then, since they’re unable to touch them.  Which I thought was very – that was nice, that was spectacular what they had going on.  So they were using 3D printers for that.  
We are at the end of the interview, which took just a little longer than anticipated (laughs).
Sorry.
Oh no, thank you.  I will just ask you if there is anything you wanted to add that we didn’t touch and maybe you thought about something and didn’t know when to say it?
I don’t think so, I think I got out everything that I wanted to say.  Do you need any demographics or anything?
I forgot to ask just your age?
I’m twenty-four.  
And you are from?
I’m from Cleveland, Ohio.
So that’s it.  Thank you a lot for your time.  If you’re interested then we will send you the output of our research when we have analysed the interviews.  I will keep your contact and I will send it to you.
Perfect, thank you so much.
Thank you, goodbye.