KEY
Bold:		Interviewer
Regular:		Respondent 1
Italics:		Respondent 2
[ ]:		Uncertain word(s)

Hello.  Thank you, [anon], from the GATES project.  Thank you very much for agreeing to take part in this study, in this interview.  Like we said already before I will ask you now a number of questions about yourself, about your perceptions about ethics and game development, game research, about the relationship between serious and applied games and the mainstream and entertainment games.  You don’t have to answer all the questions.  If you don’t want to answer a question just say so.  The interview is going to be recorded and it will be treated as data, so if we need to quote an interview we will obviously ask permission, but all interviews will be anonymised and we will be looking at patterns across a number of interviews, rather than an interview in particular.  Can I have your permission to go on with the interview?
Yes.
Fantastic.  Let’s start with the first question which is more general introductory, a question about your background.  What are your research interests or what brought you to gaming?  What is your background?  Let’s start from there and then we will move on to more specific things.
Okay.  I’m Zizis.  My background is I have a PhD in Electronics and Agriculture.  I’m an ergonomist, my speciality basically is agricultural machinery, I’m agricultural engineer.  And while working on agricultural aspects I [0:01:47] aspects. [0:01:50] is dealing about applying new technologies, new types of technologies, in agriculture.  So everything that we would see in everyday life about computers, networks, spatial sensors, or robot or [0:02:10] etcetera, everything that technology now [0:02:14] tend to apply [0:02:16] fields in order to achieve better quality first of all of products to achieve bigger yields and bigger part of the products.  And to achieve more environmental agriculture because [0:02:31] most let’s say [0:02:36] pollution in earth.  So the goal of [0:02:36] agricultural is to achieve a better environment and bigger yields in order to tackle the problem of world [0:02:51] will be let’s say soon very visible.  Because in 2050 it is expected that the earth will have ten billion people.  So the work I did will be about that.
In many cases the reason that we try to make this game and the reason that we are keen to take this project is that there is a big problem where there are several issues about how farmers will adopt these technologies.  They don’t want to adopt these technologies, they think that they are expensive, they think that they don’t gain anything from that, etcetera.  So there is a general problem not only for us but in general European Union gives a lot of money to try to make production rate bigger.  It is not happening only in Europe, There are too many [0:04:06] adoption from [0:04:09] from USA, etcetera.  So it’s a big thing.  The aim of all these people that are giving [0:04:19] will apply [0:04:24].  So they are trying to find ways to make the farmers to believe in the technologies and start to buy the technologies.
So this is the origin of the GATES project, just to make a tool to help farmers mostly, [0:04:48] this and [0:04:51] applying [0:04:54] to your farm.  And of course [0:05:00] how these technologies are not working, because okay, [0:05:05] because, you know, there are some [0:05:13] easy ways to make them understand what [0:05:22].  That’s what I mean for a start, [0:05:24].
Hello, my name’s [0:05:34], I’m also a developer on the team, I’ve been working as a developer for the past seven years and [0:05:39] sector.  I will not be [0:05:47].  
But I have been involved with the project in terms of management [0:06:04] etcetera.
All right, okay.  Would you say then your project is about developing a serious game, would you categorise your project as such basically?  You are trying to develop a serious or applied game to achieve a particular type of objective which is increase technology adoption in the farming community in order to have more efficiency, in order to have better use of resources, that’s my understanding.  Would you agree with that definition?
Yes.  
Let’s try maybe and expand a bit more on this idea of applied or serious games.  Could you maybe tell me a bit more what are your views, what you actually think about this idea of using games for serious purposes, to tackle serious issues?  Would you be able to expand a bit more on your thoughts?  Also experiences that you had in the past, doubts or whatever it is that comes to your mind really.
Okay.  [0:07:30] idea about the game.  And [0:07:37].  And I was playing a lot of games, I love [0:07:49] players.  [0:08:00] develop a lot of games, mostly [0:08:00] games.  So I’m the type of guy who thinks that you can achieve a lot of things from games.  So the idea of a game [0:08:17] to make a game.  And [0:08:23] and this [0:08:28] as a smaller programme, as a smaller game, the name was [0:08:35].  So we made a game that [0:08:43] history.  So we wanted to expand it and make something way better, a big let’s say adoption from the market of users, [0:09:01] who are interested.  And so [0:09:08] a lot.  
The project is quite broad, we are in month six, and what I’m seeing now is that the game seems very, very promising because [0:09:22] a lot of room, you know, a lot of [0:09:22] about the game.  Even [0:09:36] a lot about the concept.  And they are thinking about applying things like that for areas of Africa.  Farmers [0:09:54] benefits of [0:09:57].  But [0:10:02] white label, so [0:10:08] create [0:10:27] let’s say game with more characteristics, etcetera, based on part of the game.  So yes, [0:10:21].  And I hope that it will [0:10:25] in order to [0:10:27] successful project, you know. 
All right, okay.  Any other views from – sorry, your name? 
Panagiotis.
All right, okay, sorry about that.  Anything to add to that?
[0:10:46] to learn something.  I don’t think I have anything more to add.
I’m going to read you a statement now and I’ll ask you basically to tell me whether you obviously agree with it, probably you do agree with it, but I’ll ask you to look also at the other side of the argument and then to try and expand a bit more this idea of using games to change behaviours and attitudes.  That is really the statement.  So games are powerful tools to change behaviours and attitudes for the better.  Okay.  Do you agree with this statement?
Of course we agree.
Yes, of course.
And do you think that there is a flip side to this argument?  Like a counter argument?  A way in which games may have a negative impact on people or can be misused?
[0:11:48] aspect about gaming in general there are a lot of [0:11:55] every day let’s say.  They don’t have life.  Some people spend all their time on games and they don’t have life, see what’s around them, [0:12:10].  So if you are using a lot of the games that’s a problem.  You must put some limits.  But in general, gaming [0:12:24] I cannot find something negative.  But in general, there is a problem there.
So it’s kind of more ethical—
I believe [0:12:44] games the same applies to serious games, it’s [0:12:50], it’s the way you use it.  It’s like a gun, it’s not the gun that has the problem it’s how you use it.  So even if it’s a serious game or a [0:13:01] game, if you use it wrong you may have many drawbacks, problems.
Okay.  That is precisely what I would like to expand a bit more on.  How would you say it’s possible – I mean, this idea of using games, or misusing games, you said producing robots, is that what you said?
Plus also robots, yes.
What do you mean by that, can you try and expand a bit more on that?  How can games be actually used badly, irrespective of the context in which they are used, irrespective of the sector, whether it’s entertainment or serious?  Are there aspects of games, mechanics, types of technologies, principles, specific approaches which are open to misuse?
Ah, well, [0:14:06] I cannot [0:14:09].
No, because [0:14:13]—  So [0:14:18] way to misuse [0:14:23].  They prompt how to [0:14:25]. So they do that, but then [0:15:01] or anything.  They don’t do [0:15:06].  And [0:15:08] and after this technology will inform about that.  This technology [0:15:22] you must apply, this quantity, or this input, this part, do not apply to the whole field, do not apply [0:15:22].  So I don’t think that [0:15:39].  The problem for there is to learn.  Okay, it’s [0:15:46] for some of them.
Right, so there is a very specific kind of objective there?
You must use [0:16:00] and this measure has to be analysed and applied the necessary parts of the field.
Okay.  Do you have anything to add to that?
No, I completely agree on this aspect.
Let’s talk a bit more about the specific let’s say how games work a bit more in detail.  The sort of innovative mechanics or principles, mechanism, associated with gaming.  Could you describe what are according to you the main differences in terms of mechanisms between entertainment games and serious and applied games?  Beyond obviously their obvious purpose, the fact that entertainment games are there to entertain and serious and applied games are there to educate, to engineer behavioural change.  Beyond this kind of obvious goal they have, which may be different, what are the main differences and commonalities between entertainment games and serious games?  
For example, do they rely on the same kind of psychological mechanisms?  Are they experienced and played in the same way?  Are there kind of distinctive features, characteristics, that for example do not translate, transfer, really from one domain to another?  Things like combat mechanics, competitive multi player, open world scenarios, whatever it is.  So I’m trying to understand a bit more the difference between entertainment games and serious and applied games from your perspective.
Okay.  From my perspective, [0:18:00].  So you must [0:18:07] you can put in forever let’s say.  Whereas [0:18:23] you must apply some let’s say steps in order to understand what’s [0:18:33].  And we must simulate [0:18:49] environment.  Not in the [0:18:53] will have the simulate, [0:18:57] simulations, you know, [0:19:03].  Because the weather affects the crops and the weather affects the way you can [0:19:25] the crops.  [0:19:27] the game, then that environment [0:19:31] totally realistically.  For doing that, [0:19:36] using the [0:19:39] five years for [0:19:44] simulation environment.  This is the first one, [0:19:49] create a real environment.  Because in games some things are not so real.  So okay, so we do that. 
And second, the game to be enjoyable to the players because that’s [0:20:11] otherwise they won't play it. So of course [0:20:29] let’s say some learning capabilities [0:20:37] create something that is boring.  Some types of scenarios [0:20:44] more for fun than for [0:20:51].  The first time it’s not only for [0:21:00] agricultural sector.  It’s also for [0:21:07] more farmers will farm and they will [0:21:14] despite if they are [0:21:19].  But there are some other parts of games that are more let’s say technical, more educational, [0:21:41] won't be as fun as let’s say a game [0:21:53].  
But in general, the difference between the commercial game and [0:22:03] because you play the game, the players play the game.  [0:22:15] agriculture.  So for increasing the [0:22:24].  So if you are a farmer and you have some [0:22:35] essentials, you will be able to play this type of game and use the game to make simulations.  Okay, [0:22:50] look into the future and [0:22:54].  So it’s more let’s say realistic compared to commercial game.  I don’t know if that helps you, but—
This kind of simulation aspect seems to be quite central.  You also talked about fun elements, they have to be there.
Yes.
So what is the purpose of those fun elements?  What kind of relationship do they have with the more commercial, because that’s usually – we found that generally when people tried to inject fun or enjoyable elements into a game then they use mechanics or principles which seem to come mainly from the commercial gaming industry, would you agree with that?
Yes, because you have to [0:23:50], you cannot [0:23:57].  So yes, [0:23:59].  It’s not fun for the game.
Right, I agree, okay.  Let’s try and expand a bit more on this.  Would you say then are there according to you – is it a matter of whatever works?  Whatever makes the player engaged, whatever makes the experience more fun?  Whatever motivates the player or the user?  Or are there aspects or mechanics for example from the commercial sector that really do not transfer well when applied in a more serious or applied context, for example, in your area, in your field?
I think that you can take everything that’s already used in commercial games to a serious game.  The problem is that you get – you try to [0:25:32] to balance this [0:25:37].  Let’s say educational part of the game together will have a big influence on the other.  [0:25:53] has this balance, so you must make it very, very educational [0:25:53] funny, but not educational, you must give the balance.  I think this [0:26:13] make some that are fun and education together.  Do you agree?
I agree.
[0:26:32].  In my mind, [0:26:37], you can't have that [0:26:49] you can't have a serious game without having game.
Okay.  All right, that’s very helpful.  We are near the end of the interview.  And I wanted to ask you now – to open up a bit the discussion if you like.  And ask you basically your views about what the possible ethical concerns might be when developing a serious game, if any at all?  You can say that there are no ethical or concerns or discussions that need to happen when developing a game that is specifically aimed at achieving some kind of social or cultural change.
To tell you the truth, [0:27:52] question [0:27:59] but I think [0:28:02] the game.  [0:28:07] it depends on the game. [0:28:13] ethical problems [0:28:13] that doesn’t agree with [0:28:28].  It’s an ethical issue but in any case [0:28:34] in my mind let’s say [0:28:39] successful serious game [0:28:44] they use [0:28:48].  You must have a [0:28:52].  The problems [0:29:04].  So that means [0:29:12].  I think maybe just [0:29:20] issues rising, [0:29:27] the game.  And how they [0:29:35] the game.  [0:29:38] for some [0:29:45] make the game better to the player you have to [0:29:54].  Okay, if the game does not score with the first try, [0:30:12], this sensor or this technique let’s say.  [0:30:22].  So I’m not so sure, [0:30:43] the name of the player but okay, another player [0:30:52].  But from the other side [0:30:53] people.  
Some ethical issues [0:31:01] I don’t know, [0:31:03].
Anything to add?
[0:31:11] confidence but I think [0:31:20].  When we applied the [0:31:24] in every sector of our life, [0:31:31] applying for example, [0:31:39] it becomes better, it’s helped people to go to the farm, new people to go to the farm, a lot of our farmers [0:31:55].  So they are [0:31:57].  So yes, the technology that [0:32:09] the social life and [0:32:09].  I don’t know if it’s considered ethical or no, sorry about this.
It’s an important perspective, the fact that – basically what you’re saying is that there are impacts, so there are implications, you know, social, cultural, for people, but you couldn’t quite have a discussion about those.  Because first in your specific experience, in your project, this doesn’t seem to be a concern because you’re mainly dealing with very straightforward matters, basically people using technologies and adoption and that kind of thing.  And also be there seems to be also a difficulty in terms of thinking about those aspects of – is that right?  There seems to be quite a certain vagueness to them, would you agree with that?
I don’t understand the question, sorry, can you repeat it?  
Basically it seems to be difficult from your perspective to talk about ethical issues associated with technology, with gaming in general?
Yes, from the side that I’m not [0:33:28] I’m not an expert on this, [0:33:37] many games [0:33:41].  So general games there is [0:33:56] problem, [0:33:59] let’s say [0:34:03] industry.  So that is [0:34:08] everybody, you know.
That’s definitely some of the things we are looking at.  I want to ask just one final question now about the future directions, future scenarios if you like?
Can you repeat?
Yeah, I wanted to ask—
[0:34:30] microphone.
Can you hear me now?
Yes.
Just one final question about the future directions of the serious and applied gaming sector.  What do you think are the main possibilities and challenges and tensions in the serious and applied gaming sector from your experience, from your perspective?  And also whether this kind of sectorial distinctions still have a purpose that should be preserved?
For me the future is [0:35:10].  The future in gaming [0:35:10] very, very big.  Because it’s [0:35:18] education.  From our perspective [0:35:26] sometimes this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah [0:35:39] something.  [0:35:43] let’s say for example education for the students, [0:35:54] to understand from the game, to see [0:35:54].  For this, yeah, [0:36:17] and for this, [0:36:20] your crop.  The way that [0:36:26] biggest yield, [0:36:38].  Especially [0:36:44] agriculture [0:36:50] and for digital students [0:36:57].  It has a lot of [0:37:02], that’s why it’s very [0:37:09] for us, that’s why we are in this project.
This is – there is a big future in serious games, [0:37:17], biggest [0:37:20] adopts from the [0:37:25] serious game.  Most people [0:37:37].
[0:37:37].
Yeah.  [0:37:49].  Not to say games is only fun, games is fun [0:38:03].  Gaming is not only, you know, for fun but [0:38:21].  There are many types of games that do that, [0:38:28] increase your reaction time, games that specialise. In general, that’s [0:38:38] the biggest challenge [0:38:43].
Would you say that there are commercial, entertainment games that actually can help people learn something?  Or they can help people have some kind of positive outcome beyond entertainment and fun?  Are you aware of any?
I can only speak as a developer.  Where [0:39:09] gaming [0:39:18] interactive and fun way to learn something new.  In my experience [0:39:25] the games that I’ve played, [0:39:33].  So I don’t want to [0:39:38] from my perspective, okay, I make a lot of [0:39:42] for gaming.  
Multi player games?
[0:39:49].  I love when I get to play a game that [0:40:02] very good.  [0:40:15] someone, you know.  Because [0:40:20] interact—
Can you give me an example of these games you mentioned?  You mentioned that there are other games like this, you mentioned browser games?
Yeah, browser games, operated by [0:40:31] even as a team, even as [0:40:31] playing the game.  For example, [0:40:40] two million [0:40:44] let’s say for another [0:40:48].  It was the Prime Minster of Greece and Greece [0:41:01] elected as the Prime Minister and [0:41:08].  The people must [0:41:12] and why [0:41:16].  Yes, I like games, [0:41:20] from the game.  
Possibilities let’s say.
Very interesting, that’s very helpful.  All right, that was my last question, so I don’t have anything else to say or to ask.  I’m going to now – only basically if you have anything that you want to ask me, any clarification, anything at all, now is the time?
I don’t need to ask anything.  The most important thing [0:42:09] industry itself is not [0:42:13]—