KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

Okay, the timer is going, so it looks like that's working.  Okay, cool.  So, for the sake of the video, could you just say your name and summarise in a sentence or two what you do in the games industry?
Sure thing.  My name's [anon]and I'm a Junior Producer.
Cool.  Awesome.  What company are you at?
I'm at [anon] Entertainment USA Inc.  It's a subsidiary of [anon] Inc in Japan.
And what sorts of games do you make?
They are visual novel romance games – they're called otome games in Japanese – and they are targeted at women who would like to experience romance.
Cool.  Awesome.  This is always a really interesting one.  What would your games be like if they were free of market restraints or if market considerations had a lower priority?  So if you weren't thinking about trying to sell, if that kind of commercial interest wasn't part of it, how would you do your games differently?
I would have a completely queer game already.  Probably we'd explore a lot more options, but we do have a bit of a corner on the market we're in, so I don't think too much would change, actually, other than being a bit more diverse.
So yeah, it's romance games you make at the moment and you would go for an entirely queer themed—
I would try to (laughs).
Okay, cool.  So we've got a few different kinds of groupings of questions that we go through here.  The first one we look at is games and society.  So do you think players have their social views or their behaviour changed by playing games in general or your games in particular?
Yes, to both.  I have had users say they didn't think non-binary was a real thing until they played my game.
Cool.  So how would you characterise their changes in behaviour after playing?
It's frequently just introducing them to topics they aren't necessarily exposed to.  A lot of them are cisgendered heterosexual women and it's introducing them to queer characters, characters whose gender identities don't fit the binary, and slowly easing them into it has helped a lot.  That character started as a minor character and became a main character, and that progression allowed people to understand it more fully.
Now, obviously that's very specific to your kinds of video games.  Do you think games in general have behavioural modifications in some ways?
I do.
(Background noise)
Oh, that's going to be fun.
Should I wait (laughs)?
(Background noise quietens)
Oh, that worked.
That's probably going to happen quite a few times.  We'll just keep on going for now, I think.
Okay.
We'll just ignore it.  We'll just try and take it out in audio editing later on.
Yeah, no problem.  
Yes, I do believe games, as a whole, do that through all different forms of diversity.  There are games that have made people realise, hey, it's not okay to be racist.  There are games where men feel comfortable to play as women for the first time in their lives, like Mass Effect.  There are a lot of men who thought, oh, FemShep is cool, and then realised, oh, she's actually really awesome.  It gives people a chance to experience what they never would, so that helps grow the mind.
So, I mean, you talked about a lot of positive changes in people's behaviour, but at the moment that's more in a kind of level of perception of issues and awareness of issues.  Do you think there's anything beyond just the way they think?  Do you think it actually makes a change to their actions?
I think it can.  It's hard to come up with specific examples off the top of my head, but in the mobile industry especially, there are games that help teach better habits, gamifying normal tasks, if that still falls under the category of games.  For me it does.  Gamifying normal tasks has helped people change their actual habits and behaviours.  There's an entire habit RPG app which is gamifying your tasks.  So, things like that have a direct influence, but—
Do you think the entertainment industry has that sort of effect, unintentionally, at all?
I think so, yeah.  Games, I think, are the most influential, though, of all forms.
Do you think, perhaps in comparison to other media, such as film or books and things like that, do you think the nature of having interactions makes it more powerful or less powerful?
I think it makes it more powerful.  Active engagement versus passive engagement is what allows you to change the way you think because, otherwise, you're only receiving the information and not engaging with it in a way that makes you an active participant.  That felt like a circular answer, but it's important to do that, otherwise you don't retain what you've heard.
(Interview paused for background noise 0:05:06)
So a lot of games use very fantastical settings, such as elves and magic and things like that, or very extreme social settings, such as warzones.  In your professional practice, have you ever created mechanical scenes or even whole games that are outside of those?  So, more set in the real world, for example.
We have mostly fantastical games.  The Japanese branch has a few that are more around reality.  They're called Slice of Life and it's typically the genre where you're an average high school student or you're an average work and, in our case, you fall in love with your co-worker or your best friend, that sort of thing.
Why do you think fantasy, in your case for the games, has been so prevalent in your work?
Escapism is definitely a big part of it.  In our games, it is experiencing something that maybe you're not receiving in real life, and the romance is pretty deeply tied to that.  But people like being able to dream, and I think that's what those fantasy elements give them.
How do you think the fantasy interacts with social awareness?  So you've mentioned non-binary characters, for example.  How does the interaction between the reality of non-binary work with the fantasy setting?
So that setting is Greek mythology in modern day New York with cool super-powers basically attached to that, and really, the character being a non-binary was almost the grounding force of that.  They're your boss and they're also your childhood friend and they happen to not identify as male or female and they're the child of Aphrodite, the Goddess of Love.  It gives it that sort of grounding that it needs to help you feel like you're part of the whole situation.
So the fantasy parts need the real parts to make it work?
Yes, I think so.
Yeah.  This topic leads on from the previous one.  It's more about ethical considerations whilst making games.  So, while working on games, do you recall intentionally addressing issues such as gender, minority representation, political culture or other serious topics?
Yes (laughs).
How do these considerations actually turn up in your games?  In what way do they manifest for the player?
So it has been a progression of adding more and more of these considerations to the games.  I mean, as a base, it started with sexuality, and adding lesbian romance options to games that had previously only been heterosexual romance was a huge first step.  As we've progressed, we've dealt with alcoholism, and that was also specifically within the LGBT community.  We have a lesbian character who struggles with alcoholism and you help her, not directly confront that, but it does make a clear difference; you see her get better over the course of the game.
We try not to get too heavy, mostly because these are romance games.  Not that romance can't be heavy, but we want users to feel good at the end of the day.  So a lot of it is putting a pretty dress on an issue and letting users interact with it as they see fit.  If they want to read into it more, they absolutely can.  If they want to focus on more of the fluff, that's also okay.
Did you notice a clear response to these things from your players?
They have been incredibly supportive of our direction to be more inclusive and more on the nose with real world issues.
Did it help build the player base, for example?
Yes.
Okay.  So when you were addressing alcoholism, for example, what was the response to that?
A lot of people didn't pick up on it as a theme, surprisingly, because we didn't hit users over the head with it.  Over the course of two seasons for this character that's out right now, in the first season she has a drink in many scenes.  And that's even in other characters throughout; not just her own.  And by the end of the second season, it's clear that she's not drinking as much, and characters will comment on it.  She's drinking water at parties instead of boozing it up, that sort of thing.
So a couple of users have noticed because it is an issue directly in our community, and they appreciate it because we do our very best to handle it in a way that's not scary.
Have you ever been deliberately antisocial in your games?  So for example, deliberately included things that are racist or sexist or homophobic.
No.  We actually sense there is a fantasy element to all of these and we dream of the best world.  The best example of this is our non-binary character.  Even the characters that hate them, even their antagonists and villains, will never ever misgender them.  It is a non-issue and will always be a non-issue because our games are meant to make you feel good.
Would you ever make a game that does tackle that abuse more directly, do you think, perhaps not at your current company or—?
Maybe not at my current company.  Maybe in the future.  I would need a team who understands very well what we're doing and what we're trying to accomplish by doing that.
So these discussions of diversity, do you think they're related to skill sets within the company?  So do you see designers talking about this more than artists or programmers, or is it—?
It tends to start with one person, and I've seen it in artists and I've also seen it in more production and narrative people, and it slowly spreads to everyone else.  Unfortunately, engineers are the people who seem the least likely to budge, in my experience, but the whole office is now much more open, for example, and much more aware that, hey, these are issues that we have a very special position to address.
Now, it sounds like your team is generally very diverse.  Is that a fair description?
Yes.
Do you think that a similar kind of diversity in the way you tackle topics would be possible without that diverse team?
I don't think so.
Do you think it would've happened without the diversity?
It sort of happened in parallel.  We said, let's try this, and we also said, we need the right people to do this.  The very first lesbian character was a woman of colour, so we hired a bisexual woman of colour to write her situation.  It's an active process.
Yeah.  So the expansion is directly related?
Yes.
On a personal note, for yourself, what's influenced your own view of games in relation to society?  So for example, the representation of violence in games or minorities, what helps you decide to put the things you care about in games?
Games were my escape as a kid when I didn't understand the world or myself or anything around me.  I turned to games and when my friends couldn't see themselves, or even when I couldn't see myself or my family, I wanted to change that.  And then I saw other people also were making an effort to change that and I felt encouraged that I could do it too.
How much of your personal views on society do you think could be read from the games you make?
Almost all of them.  Our games are very personal.  It's intimacy and romance, and our world views, my world views, do bleed into my games, for better or for worse (laughs).
Do you think it's typical for—
(Interview paused for background noise 0:13:32)
Cool.  Awesome.  We'll go straight to the next question.  Do you think it's typical for developers to have their own personality and views so clearly in their games?
I'm not sure how it is at AAA studios or larger studios.  My studio is very small.  It's not indie, but there are not more than fifty people.  So in the position I'm in, it's easy to say I'd like to try this and people to say, "Give us your research and we will do it."
I hope other people get to express themselves the way they want in their companies.  I think it makes games better and more personal, more easy to connect to.
Yeah.  Well that leads us nicely, actually, to the next question and the next kind of group here, which is about academia and research in games.  Are you aware of any research, academic or industry research, about entertainment video games or artistic video games that's really influenced how you make games?
I try to stay up to date with research.  I couldn't name a specific group that does research, unfortunately, but when I'm trying to prove a point, when I'm trying to say, hey, we should definitely include this, it's great that there are places that have started more and more to have that research available.
Where do you go when you look for that?
I will frequently go to Gamasutra to see if there's anything posted there, or the GDC Vaults even, because people will talk about where they get their research and it's sort of the Wikipedia rabbit hole but for gaming (laughs).
Have you yourself been involved either directly or indirectly in academic research?
I believe so, indirectly.
Okay.  Can you talk a little bit more about that?
I have done other interviews and other surveys, that sort of thing, knowing that it was for this, and sometimes not.  It was a 'maybe we'll use this, maybe we won't'.
And were those for universities or were they private companies?
Private companies usually.
What were they researching?
A lot of them have been just basic statistics collection, which I assume is just to see the volume of people, that sort of thing.  So it would be like your gender – and they would, thankfully, list many, not just the binary – and your sexuality, and they were all opt-in.  I've never been sent something that was 'you have to do this'.  What kinds of games do you play?  What systems do you own?  It felt more like market research than academic research, but I know that they've shared that data with academic resources.
So you've been a survey participant but not really a focused kind of part of it?
Yeah, not really actively involved before.
Fair enough.  Now, you've clearly got to the point where you've found some success within your role.  Congratulations on your promotion.
Thank you so much.
So you have a body of knowledge in how to go about doing this stuff successfully, but why do think knowledge sharing through academia isn't something that has been part of what you do?
For me, I don't know the outlets to go to to do that, more than anything.  The main outlet I go to to try and knowledge share with people are foundations like I Need Diverse Games, just because they so directly deal with what I care about and am working towards.  But it's definitely lack of knowledge of where to go.
Yeah, okay.  So why do you attend conferences like GDC?
GDC is one of the few places in the world I can talk to people who are just as passionate about gaming as I am from a professional standpoint.  I am a fan of games and I always will be, but I'm also very passionate about creating them and making them better than they have been ever before, and many people here feel the same way.
Yeah.  Do you often talk at GDC?
I have talked at GDC once this year.  Other conferences, Gameranx straddles the line of convention and conference.  I think it's got a pretty interesting split of industry professionals versus fans.  But I've spoken there two years of the current four, so I'm starting to speak more.
And what sorts of topics do you usually talk about?
I am almost always asked to talk about queerness in games, which is okay.  I enjoy it as a topic and I'm involved indirectly, but I've also been asked about production in general: "As a producer track, I went to school for this and then I got into it."  So it's nice to occasionally have (laughs) the variation.
What would be your ideal topic to talk about?
That's a really good question.  I would talk more about inclusion in games and hiring people for that inclusion.  Inclusion is more than just throwing a diverse character on screen.  It's including diverse people in the creation of that character.
Do you think the knowledge development is one of the main reasons that people come to conferences, or is it network, or is it a balance of these?
I think it's a balance.  There are people who come purely to network and there are people, like students I know, who come to learn, and everyone else falls somewhere in between.
(Interview paused for background noise 0:19:21)
So finally, we've obviously addressed a few different topics, but if you were to step outside of where you are at the moment and make your ideal game, if money was not an issue at all, would it still be a queer romance sim?
I think so.  There might be a little more RPG element or more game playing than just narrative decisions, but yeah, I love the personalised aspect of romance games.
Cool.  Awesome.  Well, Lauren, thank you so much for your time.
Thank you, Mata.
[0:20:05], cheers.
KEY
Bold:	Interviewer 1
Italic:	Interviewer 2
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

So you mentioned off mike just a moment ago that when you were looking for research, you actually looked outside the games industry.  Can you say a little bit more about that, please?
Yes.  So, pitching the very first lesbian route of our company's history, I needed the research to prove people would buy this, people would support it, we would see an increase in sales, we would see an increase in [0:00:23], but there wasn't any research that I could find for games that showed this.  
So I turned to television and movies, that main field of entertainment.  Not so much books.  We're doing that now, where we turn to books more, but they had so much more statistics and articles and was just easily accessible on 'this segment has done x, y, z for this genre'.  Bringing those forward did end up helping.  I got the green light and now we have six lesbian characters and a non-binary character.  But it's hard not having games to also go 'this did this too'.
Yeah, I know.  Having access to research helps.
Yes.
It's interesting that you mentioned there that it was also driven by having to demonstrate a user need, or a user desire.
Yeah.
Actually, can you remember where you found those statistics?
I was just googling furiously.  Honestly, I wanted to do this so badly, I pulled from many, many, many different websites.  It was three years ago, so unfortunately I don't remember.
Fair enough.  Okay.
The data would be old now at this point, but yeah.
Have you shared any of the knowledge that you've got about this?
Perception of age of data is a very important follow-up question.
Oh yeah.  Okay.
When would you consider data to be old?
I think it's 2017 and the world has changed.  I don't know how reliable data from 2012 would be because we have seen worldwide changes.  Marriage equality is a thing in seven, minimum, countries right now.  That's what I look into the most, those sorts of representation details.  But everything changes and we are in the fastest growing technological era of the world, so like I said, 2012, I would not really bring that to the table anymore because it wouldn't be relevant.
Do you think that the changing business models have been a factor here as well?
Absolutely.  In 2012, mobile games were just starting to really, really kick off, and now it's the biggest market, right?  So the amount of people you can even survey has changed.  Everything has changed.
Have you shared any of the statistics that you have from your titles?
I have not, mostly because I don't know where the confidentiality line is there.  It's something that I would like to do, and by them allowing me to do interviews like this – and I do ask for permission first, to be safe – I think they are starting to be more willing to talk about what we do.
When you say 'them', you're referring to…?
My bosses, the higher-ups.
Okay.  So you had to check with Japan, perhaps?
I don't know that it went that far, but I at least had to check with my direct superior here in the US branch.
So would you say that confidentiality is an issue in trying to share?
Yes.
Yeah, okay.  Interesting.
I can only ever give vague answers like 'this character is the fourth [most] popular'.  I can't tell you 'they did this well in comparison to this character'.  I can't give exact numbers because that goes too far, which is unfortunate.
And that's for reasons of market competition, is it?
I believe so.
Yeah.  Do you have any main competitors in the market for what you're doing?
Yes, there are both Japanese and English competitors we have.  For Japanese, there's NTT [Somarai 0:04:17] and I think the next biggest one would be [Cyburn 0:04:20].  NTT is the big one though.  And then in the States, there's now Episode and Choices, which have both proven to be huge hits and they're doing something right.
Now, obviously you've got two sides in this.  Obviously you've got your business side of it, but you've also got a personal interest in making this stuff work.  How far would the personal interest have to go before you shared if you decided to team with Episode, for example, to try and share ways of inspiring a community?
I can't even imagine being able to do that.  I would love to because they are approaching it differently than we do and we have different measures of success.  Our titles do have more sexuality diversity and gender diversity than theirs do.  I know Choices has one female love interest across all of their titles right now, whereas we have six.  You know, that sort of difference.  But at the core, we're still trying to produce the same thing.  I would love, love, love to sit down with them and talk about that, but I don't know that I would be allowed to.
Ah, that's interesting, that lack of sharing of data.  Cool.  Any further questions?
I wish we could.
(Laughs)  Any further questions that you've got?  No?  Awesome.  Thank you very much once again.
No problem.