NOTES Gender: female Interview year: 2020 Interview mode: remote Full interview length: 00 h 36 min 11 sec; 5010 words Transcript validation: two-researchers Anonymised transcript validation: two-researchers & interviewee Interview language: English ABBREVIATIONS I - interviewer R - interviewee's response [text] - anonymised excerpt <...> - excerpt omitted for anonymisation purposes (e.g., personal, or other-specific data) - technical remarks (e.g., pause, smiling, rebuking) {...} - excerpt omitted to enhance coherent reading {text} - clarification inserted to enhance coherent reading [1] The term of an Ombudsperson is used in general sense about those who handle allegations, resolve conflict and/or promote research integrity in other ways. [2] The term of consultant is used to refer to delegates (trained and/or recognised by Ombudsperson's office) from academia who provide research integrity training, advising and/or consultancy within their institutions. Depending on a country system they may bear different names (e.g., advisors, trainers, coachers, local ombudspersons). I: OK, so we can start the interview and am... the first thing I would like to ask could you shortly tell me about your path to your role [of an Ombudsperson [1]]? R: Sure, so my path started probably [number of] years ago when I did my... [field-specific degrees]. And I began work as a... uh... [field-specific academic position]. Uh, which includes more broadly also research ethics and research integrity. Uh and over time, you know, I've got more experience, I did research, I did quite a bit of publi... publishing and supervising students. I became uh... [managerial position at a Faculty]. And then from there I took a job in [non- academic sector]. In uh... research ethics. Actually, I chaired a research ethics committee. And also, looked at the issues of research integrity in the <...> very very large [organisation]. Uh... And then I saw the job opening in [my country]. For uh... it's actually someone to look after research integrity for [my country]. And so, I applied for that and I was successful. So, it started out about [number of] years ago from [a specific field]. I: So, but mainly it's... the... your whole path to current position was in in in research integrity, right? R: Uh... It was... it started out more in research ethics, actually. More focused on the research ethics side of things. And then the be... became also more inclusive of research integrity. But even in my current job I still do a lot of... I answer a lot of questions about research ethics. So, I... I do both at the same time. Because I see them also both as very connected. I see... my view is you have <...> ethics as the umbrella and underneath it you have integrity, professionalism and various subsets. But on the top, the big layer on top for me is ethics. 'Cause you have to know the foundations of ethics and the principles and the values before you can ever start dealing with issues of integrity. I: Uh... We will probably come back to this. Uh... But I would like to further ask, so do you consider yourself a promoter of research integrity? R: Absolutely. Yes, I do. I: Why and how? Could you please elaborate a bit more? R: Uh, well why? I guess because it's my job. That's what I was hired to do. But also, because I think it's very important. <...>. And so, I know it's very important for [clinical] research to be done well. Uh because that data is very important, and if that data is not high quality and it's used then for the treatment of patients, uh it could, it could be harmful. So, it's to have high quality. I: And in your current position, how would you say you promote research integrity? R: Uh, we we promote it in a few ways. We do training courses. Uh, we do uh custom seminars that that departments may ask for on specific topics. We do a [regular] newsletter that has articles in it about things that we feel are important. Uh we... what else? We have a system of integrity [consultants [2]] that we put at institutions around the country to be on site, easy to access people, to ask questions about integrity. So... uh and then of course we have a consultation service. People can always reach out to us with questions for free within our country, to get their questions answered. So, we don't want to have any barriers to people not knowing what to do. So, we try to create as many avenues as we can for questions to be answered. I: Um, what are the most important goals that you strive to achieve in promoting research integrity? R: Uh... I am... One of the... one of the goals is for people to feel that research integrity is important. That it's not something extra: "Oh gosh, I have to add this on to my project, that's research integrity. That's another box I have to tick". But I would like people to just feel that it's normal and natural. And that it's part of their DNA that you would do as part of best practice. Uh... So just as you would have good statistical methods, you would have good ethics and integrity in your study. So, I would like... at baseline for people to just feel that this is normal way of working. I think that's how how it should all... how it should all come about. I: So, this would be the main goal that that you think you want to achieve? R: Uh... It's the... it's the starting points. It's it's certainly the the the more broader thing is high quality research; research data that is robust, that you can trust. I have my cat here craw... crawling into the video. Sorry. OK. I: Col... colleague. R: Yes, my colleague. I: OK, and and what are the areas that you find the most meaningful to focus on in in your work? R: Oh, I think for me I love dealing with the challenges of publishing and authorship and peer review. <...>. And it's not because <...> it's just the joy of every creative work that I publish. I get a lot of fulfilment out of it. So, I sort of pass that along. When I see people coming to me and they're having trouble writing, publishing, they are fighting with their co-authors, they don't understand the peer-reviews that are coming back and how to deal with an editor or things like that. Uh... I... I really love helping people out with that thing. So, I think that's my favourite area of research integrity, {it} is authorship and publishing and peer review. I: Any any other areas which you... you would say uh... are in particular meaningful in your work when promoting research integrity? R: Uh... I think also perhaps the area is uh... I don't know if it's research integrity but informed consent. Making sure that informed consent happens during a clinical study or a research study. And guiding researchers to... through that process. How do you really get informed consent? How does that happen? What is a good and robust consent form? What does it look like? So that would be I think the second area for me. I: Uh... What are your person... personal expectations in promoting research integrity? R: My personal expectations? Uh... Well, I... I guess for... I set a pretty high bar, probably too high . {...}'Cause that's just who I am as a person. Um... I expect people to be honest and and trustworthy. And hard workers. Uh... And sadly, I don't always see that. I see people who... think it's OK to cut corners and think that cheating is not really such a bad thing because everybody does it. And so, it's hard to sometimes change that mindset. Yeah, and I would also like to see the younger... the the... young is a bad word... the junior people in research feel more confident about themselves, that they can speak up when they do see misconduct. So, the idea of having moral courage is important to me because I often see a lack of moral courage. Especially in junior people. But also, in even the senior people who kind of don't care anymore. I: And how how does it make you feel when you encounter this kind of uh... dispositions? R: I get frustrated sometimes because I think, wow, why don't people care? Why don't people care like I care? Why, why? And then I have to say: well, they are not me, they are different. They have a different experience. They have different goals, uh etc. But then I have to also say: yes, but we need to set a baseline. A baseline of quality that everybody should live up to, no matter their situation or the country that they're working in or you know, whatever, whatever. Uh we can't have it so flexible. Uh that that would create problems. So, at some point everybody's got to come up to a baseline level of robust research. I: Um... What what constraints or obstacles do you face whe... when promoting research integrity? R: {...} Oh God! I could write a book on that! I: OK . R: Oh my God, there... Uh... One of the biggest obstacles is the senior leadership. They just... a lot of them uh... have so much conflict of interest. Uh... Or they just... they just see research integrity as... a block; something that slows down their work and their processes. They got... they got contract to sign, they got new ventures to roll out, they got, you know, bigger fish to fry. And they like to turn their head or cover their eyes to things that may be going on in their institution and just say "It's not a problem" or, you know, "Just let us handle it" or whatever. Uh... They'd really rather not think about it or deal with it. That's the absolute biggest problem, and I don't know really if it will ever ever go away. Because of the... perverse incentives that we have in research to... excel and be rewarded in certain areas. So, for example, uh... being rewarded for publishing in high im... journals with high impact factors. Uh, and most of those journals are not Open Access and you want to encourage people to publish Open Access. Uh... and then uh... the... this... universities sometimes will have quotas for how many papers they want people to publish in these journals, so it pushes people to... to rush rush rush, publish publish when maybe things really aren't ready. Uh things like that, yeah. I: Any other more serious obstacles that you encounter? R: Uh... Well, that's... that's really the the biggest one, because when you have an obstacle like that then it goes from the top down and it it sort of perfuses everything along the way. And it it infuses and creates culture where all the researchers are working, and it sort of is like a contaminant. So. Yeah. I: Uh, and and again so how... How do you deal with it? How... How do you react to it, like, personally? For for you as a promoter of research integrity, what what evokes? R: Yeah, well, last month I did a webinar on [specific topic] and how how people at the top need to change their attitude. And I just did it and I did it... I knew that people wouldn't attend, so I didn't make it uh... a live webinar where people had to sign up and registered on it. I wasn't into waste of my time. I just did it on demand and then taped it and put it on the Internet. For people to watch as they see fit. And I announced it in our newsletter. Uh... You know, all you can do is put the information out there and encourage people. But... They are who they are, and they are again they are driven by incentives that we in research integrity also cannot offer. So, for example, in certain places these institutions will get bonuses from governments and ministries for the volumes of publications that their institutes put out. So, you know, that's hard to fight. We we can't <...> write checks to CEO's to... to, you know, to to pay them, to encourage them to be compliant. But governments, health systems, ministries, whatever can write them bonus checks for publishing so many papers. See what I mean, so... the incentive system doesn't exist... It doesn't exist in the same way. Yeah. I: Um... What are the toughest decisions you had to make as a research integrity promoter? R: Hm... Well, when I see things going on around me that I... feel need to be addressed and maybe the leadership disagrees or doesn't... doesn't want to address them or wants to address them in a different way or spin them a different way... And I <...> will say: "Oh, wait a minute. That's not right". Or: "We shouldn't do that. We should really do this". And my [number of] years of advice is just ignored. That's very distressing. I: And... so um... How do you feel about this kind of decisions or or situations? R: Oh, I think it causes quite a lot of moral distress, and you sort of question... uh... your role. And... If you should stay, if you should go... Uh... You know, if the... if the people at the top really have your organisation's best interests at heart. You think about all these things. Yeah, it causes you to reflect a lot about the context and the players, and conf... issues of conflict of interest and things like that. I: And and do you have... I don't know, how do you deal with it? With these feelings, I don't know, with these frustrations in a sense? R: How do I deal with it? Eh... I just do internal reflection and and try to... try to process and work it out. That's all I have. Because the other problem is {that} I can't talk to anybody about it because it's all confidential. So, there's no one to go to for advice or help. You are just sort of stuck uh... with it. So, you have to sort of... eat it, chew on it, manage it, deal with it. Because you don't have an outlet. Uh... Yeah, it's... I think people at my level are in difficult positions when they see uh... issues and problems, yeah. I: So, what motivates you in your work? R: Ah, that's a good question. I guess I just feel that I was born with a mission. {...}, so I have an internal passion and I have a mission to do and I have to carry out that mission. I: So, it's more very personal and internal motivation? R: Yeah. Right. Exactly. I: Is there anyth... anything else that also helps... to to remain motivated? Uh... R: Well, I do get kind of a lot of nice feedback from students, from people that I helped. They, you know, they... they they see a value to my experience and what I'm doing and that gives a positive reinforcement. So that's nice, yeah. I: What makes you persistent in performing your duties as as promoter of research integrity? Having in mind everything that we discussed already. R: Yeah, I think again, it's just the fact that I have this internal mission. So, when you have that it's like a burning flame inside you. Sort of like the Olympic torch, right? Uh... It doesn't, it doesn't... distin... extinguish. Uh... It may... the torch may go up and down a little bit. Um, as you have... situations but but it never goes out. That that flame is always burning and you just uh keep going on. I: And would you say you have some, I don't know, if there are some particular aspects that help you to keep this torch going? I mean you say that... R: {...} Yeah, well for sure. I mean I'm a spiritual person, so my spirituality really is a great help to me, absolutely. That without a doubt. It's a big... It's a driver for me, but it's also a source of strength for me. Yep. I: Um, what are... what would you say are the greatest achievements of yours in promoting research integrity? R: Oh. Wow. Ah... My CV {degrees from all cycles and high academic position}, myself, I think is a great achievement. Um... I... I... I have [number of] publications. <...> I consider myself extremely successful and content. So, I look back on that and I have many many happy [people] to thank me for helping take care of them. I have gifts from students that I've supervised. So, all those things make me very happy. And I feel appreciated. I: And and if focusing on on promoting research integrity, yeah, so again, what what would you say are these, I don't know, big milestones, yes, or or or some something very important that you have... {...} done? R: For milestones, I guess, certainly when I became chair of an Ethics Committee, uh that was a huge milestone. And becoming a [senior position in a large organisation]. Uh, that was a huge milestone. And even now as the integrity, you know, [research integrity promoter] for the entire country, that's a huge milestone. So, uh... and for speaking, you know, to be a [academic unit lead] that that that was also a milestone. So, I had many, many milestones. Yeah, they're all good. I: And in in current position, as as as being responsible for research integrity for for the country, yes, so what what would you say are the most important things that you achieved in this current position? R: Uh , well, in this current position, that certainly... I started this organisation from scratch, from zero <...>. So, we had nothing and in [number of] months we had an entire running organisation, with a website and programs and teaching plans, newsletter, consultation service, [consultants]. Uh... Everything was in place, office... in [a short period] time and so let's say, that's pretty pretty good. <...> we had nothing and in [number of] months we had an entire running organisation <...>. Uh... And uh... So, I'd say that's... That's huge. And we have a very nice [performance indicators system] that that runs... that's filled with all the consultation work that we've done, for various students and staff in in the country. Um... We've also had the investigative service running. Those people, the the folks that investigate cases of misconduct and all their work is also in our [performance indicators system]. So, we have a nice, big batch of data that we can use if we want to do our own research to study it. Um we've got great educational tools in the... in the sense of little videos and webinars that these are released out to the public so that other institutions can use them for their own students and staff to help teach about research integrity. So, we're all happy about that. Sharing our our information. Um... Yeah, so those are good achievements. I: Ah... what else would you like to further achieve? In this position or on in current work as research {integrity} promoter. R: Yeah. Ah... Well... Eh... I think in in the current position it would just be nice to achieve a better governance structure uh... for the organisation itself. So that uh... there... we'd have a better management of conflict of interest. That would be... that needs to be achieved. Uh... What shall... more broadly, I think I'm overqualified for the job that I do. So, I see myself moving on to something bigger and better. I: And and so what would that be? So so how do you prospect what what it could be bigger and better and? R: Ah... for... doing doing something similar but for [another] country. Yeah. I: So, this is something that is... of your prospective...? R: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I: So, we we discussed quite many of these positive and less positive aspects of of your work in current position. So, the next question is... So, what do you get from this job? R: Well, I get a pay-check. I have a nice fancy job title and I... get the satisfaction knowing that I put something together from nothing. And it's very well respected. It's it's been published in in journals. The work that we do, uhm, and... uh... so, and it's helped a lot of people. I, I have really good feedback from staff and students and so uhm... yeah, it's it's a winner. I feel I feel very good about it. Yeah. I: Mhm. Uh, how are you appreciated for for your work as a research integrity promoter? R: Ah... I'm not. Not well enough. Not well enough appreciated. It's a very, very hard job. This is... this is a job... people... I think people underestimate how difficult this job is. Uh... Because you take... you take, you see quite a lot of unhappiness and difficulty around you. You're surrounded by quite a lot of negativity and fighting, and uh... things like that. And... It can take its toll on somebody who's not... emotionally strong. And... Um... You know, this... I think people just don't understand that... they think if you just push a lot of paper it makes things happen. They don't see the emotional side of the job, and that's unfortunate. So, uh I think that jobs like this need to be even better compensated than they are. And there needs to be support systems for people in roles like myself. Because it is so emotionally taxing. There needs to be an outlet and support system for the person, because like I said earlier, we work in very confidential environment, and we at our level have no one to talk to. It's... it's crazy. I: And and and again, so how how does it influence you and how how you deal with this uh... context that you've just described? R: I sort of... I'm sort of trapped in the box. You know, there's things that I would like to do. These are things that I would like to say. But if I did any of that, I'd probably get fired. So, you you just can't. Unless you, unless you have another job lined up to go to already because you would actually put your your job on the line. So, you have to be willing to keep chugging along. It's it's not a great situation. And I don't think I'm the only person in that situation. Yeah. I: And to... Do you see any possibilities to deal with it or what would be your, like, suggestion? How how to change that and if if what what...? R: Well... I think I think that governance structures for organisations like like we're talking about, national organisations, need to be set up in very careful ways to avoid or minimise conflict of interest. That will allow more freedom of voice. Ah... and better interaction and problem solving up at the very highest levels. Until we get to that point uhm... then you're you're going to have blockages and interferences, which then create flow on effects, discord and other things. I: So maybe a similar question, but still. So, what what credit do you get from from this work? Yeah, so... R: Well, I try to get... I don't get much internal credit at all. I mean, essentially, I get nothing. Besides the pay-check that comes once a month. So, I try to generate my own promotion by publishing articles, getting my name out there and doing talks and seminars. I have to do essentially my own self-promotion because I don't get any internally, I get zero. Even though everything you see, all these successes and all of that, nobody, nobody promotes that. Nobody speaks about it. It's not seen as valuable. I: And what about some external... uh sources of some credit or appreciation? R: Oh yeah. Well, I mean peop... people publish our work. The journals obviously recognise it and value it because they they they publish our work and I speak at conferences, I get invited to external things, so they obviously see the value. Yeah. My CV is [number of] pages long. So. Somebody is seeing the value. I: Um... So, uh... how... how could... all of it affect your career in the future? R: Oh, I think this current position is just a steppingstone to the next big thing. Yeah, for sure. So, I think all this great success and the initiatives that we've done will be... they will be recognised, but not internally. They'll be recognised externally, and someone externally will will see that value and say: "Wow, we want her, we'll take her. OK, great. We like what she's done. Let's do it here. Let's let's take it here". So that that will happen. I: And as far as I understand you you you have this vision for for the future, yes? As you say something something bigger? R: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. I: Um... So... From our side I suppose we will be summing up and and very important question then is: So, what does your work mean for you? R: Well, it's it is uh... It's internal satisfaction that I know that I'm satisfying the mission and I know that people are getting value from what I do because I get quite a bit of positive feedback from my customers, so to speak, my clients. Um... And that's that's very nice. I have many awards. And things... uh... again those are external and and those are great. So, they they they make me feel content. I know... I know that the work I do is very high quality. I know a lot of it is very innovative. And... uh... So, the fact that I don't get internal... acknowledgement or compensation for that is... a small negative in the very big picture of the overall personal success that I have. I: And when you... so we discussed that there are some kinds of frustrations or stressful situations, yes, so again, how how does it relate to, to the meaningful... meaningfulness of the work for you? R: Oh, well, there there are certainly challenges that I learn from. Every time one of these issues comes up I, I learn more about people and their behaviours, I learn more about uh... processes and organisational systems, and that is all good information for me to take to my next position. I'll be better informed and have a better, you know, set of arguments the next place I go. I: Mh. OK, thank you. So, is there anything else? Because might be there is something important that you have kept in mind during our conversation, but we haven't asked? So, would you like to...? R: Yeah. Uhm... Well, I think just more broadly, the issue of both research ethics and research integrity is... is sort of always a hard sell because it's seen as a soft science. You know, we are... when I taught these things <...> but when I was [an academic unit lead], and I would try to make sure that all these things were in the curriculum. You know, you get curriculum slots. You would always be battling with the hard sciences, so, anatomy, physiology, chemistry, mathematics, physics. They all... want their time and and people view their... uh... domains as much more important. And so, the higher ups, the deans, etc., they are much more willing to give those departments and and scientific areas time in the curriculum, in the programs, than they are us. So, if we as an area of science continue to get side-lined where it's very hard for us to show our value. Because we get swamped and drowned out by these other areas, which are seen to really have the value. So, it's a much bigger uh contextual thing that needs to get resolved. Again, like I said before, it's at the very high levels in organisations where we need to change mindsets. Because if we keep getting shrunk out of the curriculum and shrunk out of a place in an institution, nobody will see our value. Even though we know we have value. So, I think that's something that needs to be recognised and and dealt with. We shouldn't have to have fights with the physicists and chemists and the anatomists to have time, to to to to be in the curriculum. We should have uh... set aside and protected time and space. But that's only gonna come when the very highest people in organisations recognise and agree to that. That would be my parting word. I: OK . OK. So, so I don't know if you don't have any other sum up for us as a promoter of research integrity and how meaningful is that for you? R: Yeah. For me... I don't have really anything more to say, but I guess that the people who take these jobs at very high levels uh... it has to be meaningful for them, otherwise they wouldn't stay in the job very long. Because it's very hard work. It is very, very hard work. Uh... It's not compensated well. And... uh... You fight a lot, a lot of battles. Just like the one I was explaining to you. So, you get... It's exhausting. It's exhausting, yeah, work. I: OK, thank you.