NOTES Gender: female Interview year: 2020 Interview mode: remote Full interview length: 01 h 12 min 48 sec; 7709 words Transcript validation: two-researchers Anonymised transcript validation: two-researchers & interviewee Interview language: English ABBREVIATIONS I - interviewer R - interviewee's response [text] - anonymised excerpt <...> - excerpt omitted for anonymisation purposes (e.g., personal, or other-specific data) - technical remarks (e.g., pause, smiling, rebuking) {...} - excerpt omitted to enhance coherent reading {text} - clarification inserted to enhance coherent reading [1] The Ombudsperson body denominates commission, committee or other organisational structure related to handling of allegations, resolution of conflicts and/or other ways of research integrity promotion that is established within the Ombudsperson’s office. [2] The term of consultant is used to refer to delegates (trained and/or recognised by Ombudsperson's office) from academia who provide research integrity training, advising and/or consultancy within their institutions. Depending on a country system they may bear different names (e.g., advisors, trainers, coachers, local ombudspersons). I: OK, so I would like to start with a question um about... Could you shortly tell me about your path to your role at [the Ombudsperson office]? R: Uh... So, what did I do before? Before this post? I: Mh, yes. Yes. R: OK. Uh... M... I've been working in the... the [university], in the Department of <...>, uh in the [specific discipline]. So, I I studied [discipline] and... in... before I finished, before I started to wrote {write} my... m... uh < <...> in the university. And I also studied [discipline] <...> But then I was asked to be a teacher in the university, and I was happy to do that. And during... [number of] years I worked there as a as a [teacher] <...>. It was a very small discipline. <...>. <...> I was very happy to do that. <...> And then I... uh I have worked uh... uh... for [number of] years also in the administration of different universities in in [my country]. Um... I mean, it's somehow I I learned another profession because since since [year] when I left the Department of <...>, I have n... not been act... active in research work anymore. Uh... Mh... But the ethical questions has als... always been very interested, interesting to me. For example, as a student already we interviewed <...> people <...>. And so there were lots of ethical things in in those activities also. Um... But well, I... then... I've. I've seen many different universities in in [my country] uh from the... go... uh... from the point of view of of administration or government so um... so pap... paperwork of that kind, it was uh familiar for me. But then I I thought that when... [number of] years ago when it was possible uh... that there was this open post for [Ombudsperson body [1]] in in [the Ombudsperson office] uh... at at that point I thought that it was right place for me in in many ways. The former [members of Ombudsperson body] uh... has been uh studying uh... [different discipline than mine]. So, they were doctors in the field of... <...>. They were... yeah so, but it it's not uh uh... in [my country] the research, the code of research integrity is not a legal activity at all. It's from the point of view of ethics, so it's not... it's not necessary for the [member of Ombudsperson body] to be a lawyer herself or himself. And and I I was <...> not <...> a lawyer in that position. I: OK. Um... Uh... Do you consider yourself a promoter of research integrity? R: M... Yes, because it's it's the num... number one thing that our [Ombudsperson office] should do. But at the same time when we... m... we handle also the... the cases of research integrity and as... as long there will be those cases, we have to uh handle them... also. And and... of course, we all know that it's never going to happen that there is... nothing to be investigated in there, in good research practices anymore. But but yes, that the most work should be done uh so that there won't be any research misconduct. So, to promote the idea of good research practices, that's very important in my job. I: Uh... And could you also shortly elaborate so when you applied for the the current position, yeah, so what what kind of aspi... aspirations you had or what were your ideas when going to that position in regard to promotion of research integrity? R: Uh... Mostly I was interested in in ethics, in in science and I didn't know so much about research integrity. In my... during my whole career which has taken at that point already [number of] years I have never been in a situation that research integrity would have... rising up. It... it was uh strange... to me. And... uh... m... So, what then... I I was in... and then I studied the the the field of [Ombudsperson office] and I I... I found it very interesting. And, also, one thing what made it possible and more interesting to me was that that uh... our [Ombudsperson office] has also another national task or duty, and that's about ethical approval in in uh [specific] sciences, and I am a scientist of... uh... uh <...> in in many ways, so this is also... uh... this was very interesting to me. I: And so, so it was like [number of] years that you are in this position now? R: Yes, exactly [number of] years. I: OK, like anniversary R: Yes. I: Um... And... so how this position relates to promoting of research integrity? You shortly said some things, but if you could describe uh a bit more. R: Well... Of course, what's most important is that our [Ombudsperson office] gives and writes the code of conduct for research integrity. So, it's our our our code and we we see that the universities do the investigations as it's written in in the code of conduct. So in in that way uh it's also written in the code of conduct that the universities uh... have to teach their teachers and students in the way that everyone knows research integrity and ethical uh things. So that's promoting... that's the most important way to promote this uh... research integrity. But also, then we have uh some materials for... m... for for teaching research integrity. So, there are some slides there... were already before I I came to this uh... post. But then uh during my time we have had several uh... m... networking... uh... hm... discussions and seminars for universities and universities for applied sciences and for the research organisations, for the staff of those, for the the directors and rectors of those institutes. We invite them [number of times] a year for discussions on research integrity. And then we have uh... also other guidelines which promote uh research integrity. We have uh [multiple specific] guidelines <...>. And that's how they should write them so that they are most uh... ethical the way they write them is... is... what our [Ombudsperson office] uh... pr... promote. Then we have some videos for teaching uh... our code of conduct for... for students or teachers of... and they are available in our net pages. Then if there is something uh... like a... a scandal in r... in research integrity in [my country], there has... during my time there has been one or two of those. And in in that time, it's very important that that I as the [member of Ombudsperson body] I can answer the journalists and the media how the... how the things are <...> uh in in [my country]. And, also, whenever uh... someone, researcher would like to know something about research integrity, then uh we will answer them. And then one very important thing, we started [number of] years ago uh... [network of consultants [2]]. It was our own idea to start uh... uh... m... thing. So, we asked all the universities, the universities for applied sciences <...>, all the research institutes and organisations, we asked them to name one or two persons to be uh... uh... [consultant] in in... in research integrity and they did. And so, we have now a network of these [consultants]. In every university and every institute, they have the persons who are... who we... uh train [regularly], we ask them to to meet... to to meetings [number of times] a year, to for networking and we can tell actual cases for them and they have a special role to give information in their own institutes, in their own uh... And... they... it's it's a very important task for them to promote and to tell about uh [Ombudsperson office]. They tell about the activities of [Ombudsperson office] and they tell about the the importance of research integrity and, also, the importance of the ethical approval in [specific] sciences because this is not so known for... for all the researchers yet in in [my country]. And, also, they are now the first persons which the researchers should contact when they when they are wondering something, or they are uh... uh... or when they think that another researcher is plagiarising their texts or when there's something going on, then they can ask... for advice from this [consultant] and all the discussions are uh uh uh... confidential. So. Before we had this system all the researchers did phone our [Ombudsperson office] and there were lots of phone calls but... or or emails. There there are still those, but most of the questions goes to these [consultants]. And they are also... uh the system goes like that that all the [consultants], their employers have... allow them to to use their working hours for this [consultancy] job and when we have these uh meetings in [the city] so they are allowed to travel. Uh... That that the employer take the costs and they they can do it in their working hours also. So, this system... we we don't pay them any any from our [Ombudsperson office], but they... most of them they are very... very much interested in these ethical questions and I think they are proud to be the [consultants] which are nominated by our [Ombudsperson office]. Because then it's possible for them to use this title of research integrity [consultant] in their uh email {signature} {...}. And then they are very good... network for us, when we would like to tell something new, something news or whatever, or we would like to know what's going on in the universities. We contact them. So... uh... so I think this is the... the the best way to promote research integrity. Because it's it's important that every researcher knows that there is this code of conduct, they know that they have to follow them. But also, another thing is that if something goes... bad and they are themselves in trouble, so they are, it's not about... do not do this yourself, but if you are target of uh ah bad... uh behavior, then you know what what can you do to protect yourself. When... so you have to know that there is this national code of conduct, there is this that [Ombudsperson office] who is who will support you in these investigations. And and there... it's very important that we we say that everyone is innocent until the the investigation process is over and only after that... there is the final decision. And then the... the [my country's] system goes like that that the code of conduct... all the universities have written that they will follow the... our code of conduct and they will, they do the investigation uh as it's written in the code of conduct. And then when the investigation process is done, uh so after that if the suspected researcher or the the one who made... or the whistleblower, if they are not satisfied with the... the decision of the university, the rector of the university, then they can ask for <...> advice from our [Ombudsperson office] and the final word it comes from our [Ombudsperson office] then. In in [my country] it's not written in law that it... it's not a crime if if there is plagiarism going on, but it's the... we have decided that we have this... this uh this kind of uh system in in [my country]. <...>. I: Uh... thank you for for for such a coherent... um... information and uh... What are the most important goals that you strive to achieve in promoting research integrity? R: Mh... Well, of course, uh... that all the researchers and all the students al... already should know the... what is the ethical way to do... to act research in your own field. So, everyone should know these... {...} Yes. Uh also that you know... as I already said that everyone has to know what kind of things they are not allowed to do, and, also, if they are a target of this bad behaviour, they know... have to know what are their rights. And the code of conduct is for everyone in in that sense. And um when there... if there is an investigation started, when it's going on, it's the best frame... it's it's in the best interests of all parties. Also, the one who is the suspected and and also the university involved. It's in the... in its best interests that the the investigation will take place. So, there is nothing to hide in these... these things. I: What areas {do} you find the most meaningful to focus on in promoting research integrity? R: M... M... Well, at least that... during the whole research project you have to follow these guidelines. Uh... Already before you start, you have to uh know these... at least if you are researcher, the the principal investigation... investigator, then you have to know that before the research group starts. Everyone has to know already at that point uh the... criteria of authorship, so who is going to have his or her name written as an author when the research is done and published. That's has to be decided also already in the beginning. And during all the process uh you have to follow these... uh... ethical guidelines and that there are uh this research integrity of... or the code of conduct for research integrity in [my country]. This is for all fields of science and research. So, uh... every researcher has to follow this and also at the same time all the fields of research have their own ethical... principles which they also have to follow. For example, for... in the medical sciences this is clear for everyone because it's a law. That you are not allowed to to research... medicine or patients if... It it's written in the law how this will go on. But in the other fields uh... already... [number of] years ago there were no no... no rules as such, as they are today, so... all of these ethical field, everyone has to know. And it's best if the students will learn this already during their uh studies. So, in... it's not so important that every student in university have special course in research integrity, but it's very important that when they... um... uh... when they... write their first... seminar... papers or or when they uh... went on on a field, take part in a field work, so they... teachers at the same time when they teach the the actual work, at the same time they teach how how the ethics is going on in in our own discipline. And also, now during the last few years, there have been more and more new ethical things that the researchers have to follow. There is this uh... European... GDPR system, also everyone has to... has to know this in Europe. And, also, very important is in [my country] and in every every country that there are more and more foreign researchers coming in. And they are very welcome. But when they have not... had their studies in [my country], they are not familiar with our rules, so they have to be... uh... informed of [my country's] system. So, what kind of uh code of conduct, what kind of systems we have in [my country] so so they they have to know this. And and for all the teaching materials that our [Ombudsperson office] gives, we have there all... always in [number of] languages. So English is very important because there are so many researchers in the universities who don't have a knowledge of [my country's language] at all. <...>. And now we we also think about the science communication is important. So, we we also, I forget to mention, but um we have a special uh [topic-specific website]. Uh... uh... There are short articles on ethical... th... eth... ethical... ethics, research integrity and science community. And all those pages are in English also. So that's promoting uh research integrity not only for researchers, but also for... me... for representatives of media and and so on. So, it's it's written in a way that everyone can understand... the system. Also, if you are... wherever in the world and you are interested in how things are in [my country], in... in field of... research integrity, if you find these net pages then you will learn [my country's] way. I: Uh... What are your personal expectations in promoting research integrity? R: M... <...> I'm responsible for the... my employer that the the situation of research integrity in [my country] is not getting worse but but the... but the... situation is... is stable. So, uh... So, I I'm respon... I think I'm the on... the person number one who is responsible of these things in in [my country]. If it would happen that there are more and more research misconduct cases in [my country], then I think I have failed in my work. But fortunately, this is not... it's not... been going that that way, but the situation is quite stable and there are only very few research misconduct cases which are real research misconduct. Yeah... In in [my country] we know how many cases there are going on and investigations in universities because its written in our code of conduct that every university have to inform our office if there is a new... uh... investigation starting and when the investigation is over, they have to inform us again what was the final solution of this case. Whether the case was research misconduct or not. And then we have the statistics of this and we we uh... publish them yearly. How many cases there has been and how many research misconduct has been found out and, also, how many statements our [Ombudsperson office] has been given during this... during... the year. And we have a plan that we would m... publish these cases more often because now we... uh publish them only once in a year uh in our annual report. But we could publish them already at once when the case is closed, or when we have got... we have... given our statement. But all these uh... details we have been publishing or we will, they are without any names or without uh... information off the the university, what's involved, so they are anonymised cases which we will publish. But this is the purpose of publishing. This is to... uh... in a way or so, to promote what kind of things there has been and and what kind of uh... problems there could happen. I: Um, what constraints or obstacles do you face when promoting research integrity? R: Uh... What do you mean? I: Uh... {...} yeah so so in your work, right, when when you... know... do do do your role related functions. So, are there some difficulties that you encounter? Or... I don't know, some some issues that hinder... uh... what you want to do or achieve? R: Uh... Well, uh... Sometimes we met... some old professors who know very well how the things are and they don't want to listen that what we might want to say. They they think that they know everything in the field of ethics, and they don't have to... uh... get any advice from anyone else, because they are above... us or so, perhaps something like that. Uh... Then... sometimes we found out that some universities or universities of applied sciences uh... uh... it's possible that they had the first research misconduct case ever, and then they think that it's a shame for them and they don't want to inform us. Some... sometimes it happens that only afterwards we noticed that there has been going on an investigation, but they didn't... but... they didn't... m... uh... remember that they should have been informed us. Um... But that's... But then when... For example, the biggest universities, it's it's a normal procedure, it's it's very... it's... it's it's m... it's it's not normal... not to not to have these cases. So, every university have these cases. Most often they are not so uh bad ones, they are arguments between different researchers, they are... a revenge of something, they are not very serious research misconduct. Mostly they are... uh well... something about authorship issues or so on. But but still it's possible that some university... things that they they would like to to do everything they can, that they could uh hide this. But it's it's uh... it's... it's not not a good thing like that. And and now during these last few years um... situation has been better. I think. And, also, when these um... research integrity [consultants] started their work, also one of the things they they will do is that they will have a conversation with their rector. So, the rectors of the university thinks that they are good uh... good persons to to promote ethics and they understand that there is no point of hiding this kind of things. I: Uh... What are the toughest decisions you had to make as a research integrity promoter? R: What can I say? Uh... Well I don't know if I can answer you that directly, but it's uh... I think that... uh... there is... Sometimes we have phone calls from the researchers who are in the middle of these investigations, or that they have just heard that they have been... someone is suspecting them of of fraud or research misconduct. And they say that they have... they have not done anything like that, or if they have, they don't understand it or... so and and they think... uh... we can hear from telephone that it's very uh difficult time for them. It's it's possible, but they are crying. They they really have uh... bad time and their health is going down. They... they have to stop research work because of the mental pressure is so bad. So, to to... mh to understand these things and still to to act... uh... so and and in in many many ways when these researchers has phoned us... have us for... or for example, me, and I have advised him or her what what to do. Because in my role it is that I I don't comment on the exact case. I only have... give advice of the process and of the code of conduct, but I don't... takes sides. But they they feel that if I am saying that "Oh, that's interesting" or "I'm sorry for that", then they think that I am on their side already and then in the end when our statement comes out and it's not what they are expecting, then they can... phone us or even they can then, if they... if they disagree of our statement, then they will... there are some things they can do. So those those are not... nice situations. But but that's part of my work. So, I have to... I have to... deal {with} these things also. I: But how you... how do you feel in these situations? I mean, when these kind of... more difficult situations come? R: M... Well I I just have to think that it's it's not about me {...} as a person, it's about the [member of Ombudsperson body]. And then I think what the... uh... [a governmental body] thinks that the [member of Ombudsperson body] should do. Then it's it's much easier. Like that. And then I have a... uh... well... the most... that the statements which our [Ombudsperson office] gives... they... well, I have... I have... written the text, but the statements comes from the [Ombudsperson office], so the [Ombudsperson office] decides. So, all the hard decisions are made by the [Ombudsperson office]. Of course, I I agree and... and so on. But but it in... but in... uh... it's it's, it's really, it's our [first responsible person] who is in... in... responsible for these... <...> we signed... we signed those statements together. {...} And, also, I have to say that because I've done this [number of] years... already, so I... I understand the whole system so well that it's not anymore what what I feel, it's uh... because I I believe in our system. It it goes well. And most the... rectors of the universities and so on, also they... they trust... m... uh of... they trust our [Ombudsperson office] and our [administration] uh that that they they are doing a good job and they are making right decisions. So, they respect us. So, in in... so also the... the the difficult situations are easier to handle when you know that you have a good background for the science community in [my country]. I: Uh and you said that it's... you have been doing this for [number of] years, so you kind of learned how to deal with these more difficult situations, yeah. So maybe there are some kind of, I don't know, strategies how you deal with it or or or uh... how you... keep keep doing this despite these difficult situations? R: I think I have learned it. I I have learned it. But... For example, these phone calls which are very difficult when uh you are... speaking with that researcher who is in tou... in in trouble. You just uh... uh... it... during the years you learn... how how to handle them. But also... uh... uh... I have to say, and I I know this from the... other European countries also that there are very mh... uh... difficult situations because uh... like 10% of our... clients, if I can say they're clients, it's not the right word, but but those who contact us. About 10% or even more of them are mentally ill persons. It's possible that they are not even researchers, but they think they are. And we have to take them seriously. We have to be polite and so on. But during this time, yes, I learned that there are such people. Also, they can be researchers but... but they are not... their mentally health is not good. So, uh... even... so because of that we have a policy in our office that we won't meet personally any of our clients. Or it's not allowed for anyone to come to visit us unless we have uh... m... uh... we have invited them. Because there has been one or two situation in a... in my first years. That the situation has been... uh... uh... bad . So, I I uh... suddenly I I noticed that the client is... uh the situation is dangerous, so to say. But now we have a good uh... um... m... system how how to handle this and the... the rule number one is that we are not meeting the researchers anymore in our office, but we we can tell in the telephone or if we are going to meet uh some person, we don't know beforehand, then we are not... never alone with him or her. So, there are at least two persons from our [administration] to meet this researcher in the case the situation is is someway getting worse. I: Uh... What motivates you in your work? R: That this is very... interesting. Very, very interesting. You never know what kind of emails there are. Because in our office we got the information of all the research misconduct cases in [my country]. So, uh... so it's it's very impor... very interesting to... to follow what happens and uh... There are... I think there are... any of the cases or two cases are like. They are... all the cases are so... different and you could never... if you would... if you would... guess what kind of cases there will come, you'll never know. There are so... m... many many different ways how the people are... not coping with... things, or they are arguing with their uh... colleagues or... also when they are very... very difficult. Uh... But then... When I've learned that our own code of conduct... I think I'm the best person. I have to say I am the best person who knows it so well. So, I'm not afraid anymore . Perhaps when I started I I didn't know so well the the system but because I know it now, it's it's uh nice that I can advise people who are interested in these uh... processes and so on. It's it's... it's nice. And, also, this connection to... to other countries, it's also very motivating. In in the first years when I started in this job, the ENRIO network was very important, to meet colleagues all over Europe. <...>. So, I... uh... I'm... But it also makes me very busy. Because there are so much of things in our [country's] office going on. But also, I'm happy that there are more uh people working in our office as [number of] years ago. Because then, [number of] years ago there was [number of] persons working. And now I think we are [number of persons] or so. So, there are some... some projects also going on uh and... in our office, so it's it's nice that we can... uh share the questions with with colleagues within our own office also. I: Uh... What makes you persistent in performing your duty... duties as research integrity promoter? R: Uh what did you say? What makes...? I: What makes you persistent? Like, keep doing, keep doing what you do? Like being on on your goal? R: I I I don't know what to say. Uh... If if this is what you are after... but I I think that I'm... uh... uh... because I have a background of researcher myself and it's very important that I'm uh... p... I have a PhD myself, so it's what what I say it's... I'm convincing in in in my job. And I I've learned to... uh... to give... lectures or speeches of my own old field so it's... But I'm I'm very... I'm very happy in in this in this uh... job, so. I: So maybe to... to elaborate. So, what... what gives this happiness? So, what makes you happy in this job? R: I think it's it's... It's the the... the ethics and it's the subject itself. What is so... I think it's very important... for all researchers... in in all fields of science and research. And I think my work is important. So, from that comes there that I'm so satisfied. At least... still . But all all the persons who have been in this uh job before me, they have not been so satisfied, but but the situation was so different then [number of] years ago, there were so few few cases and there... there has not been this development in this... education materials. Or... or... well, I I don't know but but this for me as a representative of [specific field of] sciences or... I think... perhaps if I I were... representatives of soci... sociology, for example, I think this kind of background is very good for this uh job. Because then you... uh... m... the paperwork also is familiar for for you and you think of thing... uh... this way of working is... uh... is OK. I: What would you say are your greatest achievements in promoting research integrity? R: M... m... Well, that... That the statistics of the situation in [my country], they are good. So... I think that our [Ombudsperson office] has succeeded in its work. It's it's important that the the the board members are selected uh carefully and that uh... uh... our [administration]... we... uh... our work together with the board members it's it's nice and and good and in in that... that way. Uh... it... of... that atmosphere also promotes this uh... research... the good research practices. But uh... ah... But also, uh... uh... I don't hear too often that that you make good work because it's... our office, its position is very unique. <...>. I am very very very independent in... uh... in... ma... managing our office and the [administration]. Uh... Well... whoever is in in this position as I am now <...> uh it's very important that you... uh... coop... with other... that there, cooperation with different... with your different bosses, and the Ministry, and the universities. That you have to uh... as a person... it has to be... easy for you to to speak and to work with all the science community in in [my country]. I: And and you you think you manage to do it? R: Yes. I: OK. Um... Uh... R: Ac... actually I have to say. I am so old already and I I keep wondering how it's possible that in some European countries they have the... in the... same... same kind of position as I am now persons who are so young. I I I really have to say that it's a advantage for me not to be 30 anymore. I: Um... What else would you like to achieve in the future? R: I: I mean... primarily in this area, yeah. R: Well. Uh... M... Uh... Well, we have a a... a big but very nice challenge because we are... within one or two years we are going to update our code of conduct of research integrity in [my country] and I think uh... of my... uh experience of [number of] years. Now I know which point we should rewrite or change a little bit. So, this is very important uh because this is the most important document of our work and it has been updated once in [number of] years. Uh... So, I was already... with... when we rewrite it last time. But I have been just started. So now I know how it works and which parts do we have to change. So, this is one thing I wi... I will, at least I will do this before I will be... uh... before... I will at least this time I will stay in this office. I: Um... What do you get from this job? R: M... Well, I think it's it's uh it's best for the science. It's best for researchers. And when I think, science is very important. I think my job is also very important. Because if the the things of research integrity are not clear for the researchers, if there are research misconduct happening in the universities, the... the science or this research is... is uh... it's nothing, it's it's worth nothing. But also, if this reputation... will... the the research misconduct will destroy the reputation of researchers and science in the... uh... when you think of the media or the public. Uh... Uh... So that in in in public the the reputation of science will... uh... will go go down of this kind of cases will come up. And of course, the... the researchers, because they get the research money, or the universities will get their money from the state and this money for the state comes through taxpayers. Of course, they have to follow the ethical guidelines. Everyone of them. And I'm I'm I think that I'm... and our office, I am uh... important uh... part in that work. I: Mh. Uh... How are you appreciated for this, for this work? R: Uh... Hm... Well, you... very often you don't hear that that "Thank you. You have made a good job". It's very... It's not often you hear this. But uh... mh... uh... What can I say? Perhaps well... for example, today I got a phone call from from a lawyer from one university and [s/he] said many many times to me "Thank you! This was very useful for [her/him]". For [her/him] when [s/he] was writing, or investigation one one case and they think that that they get from... good advice from from us and we are good colleagues for them in these uh... investigations. So that's one thing. It's it's nice to hear "Thank you!". And uh... I have nice colleagues in our office. So, it's it's very important. At the... atmosphere of our own office is also good, so it's it's very important. I: Uh... Would you somehow say that like if if you would receive more appreciation or more this obvious appreciation, it would... would be somehow important for you? Or {do} you find the meaning in your work in some other ways? R: Uh... I'm sure that everyone would like to have more... more um... uh... positive feedback. Of of your... of his or her work and... and... uh... But but I understand that because our office is so independent, uh there is no system or no boss to give this feedback for me. But I also think that when we don't get uh... uh... negative feedback, for example, from the Minister, because we are the expert body of the [governmental body], because... once in a year they say that you make good job. I think that's... enough then. But of course, there are times that I I've been thinking that: "Is this what I would like to continue or is there something else?". Uh... [number of] years is a is a long, long time. But because... well um... but for me this has been a very very uh... suitable... job. So, I I've been... because I can... in this job I can be myself also very independent. So, I can uh... managed or handled all the work there is to do. Uh... I can decide how and... when to do this. So, this is what what I like. I: Uh... You just mentioned a little bit about some future. Yeah. You said you are thinking if you if you do it or not... uh... to continue or not, and so the next question is: How could your current role, yeah, your work in your current role could affect your career in the future? R: Uh... Well, I'm... I'm, I'm already... If if I were younger, I think I would wonder those things. But now I'm... uh... this year I will be [number of] years old. So so, there are uh... not so many years to come. Uh... anymore so... so... uh... But uh... when when I was younger, I was wondering that I would like to have some kind of job in which... which would include the international uh... aspects. But... or I... I got this also with this uh... current post. Because of this ENRIO network. Uh... It it was international, and I have intern... colleagues all over Europe. Uh... And and... uh... and now when I I was choosing chosen as [part] of this [international] network, then I think I am now doing this international work. So, this is an extra joy for me. So... I I don't... I cannot imagine anything more interesting to me as what I'm doing now. So there... if if I have more working hours I could do more promoting in in European level. So that what uh... colleagues are expecting from me in Europe <...>. But this is really... there is so much I could do in the European level... but there is now... it's not enough time for all of these... things. I: We are moving towards the end of of of the interview and to sum it up, what does your work mean to you? R: Ha. M... M... because for so long time I have... I had already working as a researcher and as a teacher in the university, so in a way I... then I saw that I've seen this already. When for... I was very young when I became a university teacher. And I was teaching students uh for [number of] years. And written my uh... doctoral thesis already. So... I was interested to see university as a... as s... as an organisation from the point of view of the... uh... of... directing and developing things. Uh... So... After all these... the the working in the... research and working in the administration in the universities, so this is now uh... very... suitable part for my career. So, I think... I hope that when some... someday they will choose a successor for me, they we... they think or respect the the... uh... that that the person would have uh... experience from... from the... different fields of research also. So, they are... Uh... Well, some something like that. I: OK . Um... R: Actually what... what did you ask that? I: I asked what what does your work mean to you? R: OK. Well, I've I've cho... I've chosen to be a researcher, but I I noticed that there are so many aspects in in the field of research to be... to me to be uh... important part... part in the science community. So... uh... I've been happy that I have been able to... to do all of these jobs and this is... What can I say say more?{...} Well for for everyone, of course, work is important that that I have... I have been or I had the... uh... I'm happy that I got a job in which uh... the PhD... doctoral thesis is is important. So, it's not... there are there are hundreds of doctors in in [my country] and all of them... don't have a job in which... the... their these doctoral skills is is uh... is evaluated. I: OK. Um... So, these are all questions from my side. Uh... I don't know. Maybe there is anything else that you find important, but I haven't asked about it? R: Oh, I don't know if there is anything like that... {...} I hope you got the idea. I: Yes, yes. I I think it was really really good and I really understood everything that that we were discussing, so. R: OK. Yeah.