NOTES Gender: female Interview year: 2020 Interview mode: remote Full interview length: 00 h 58 min 15 sec; 9330 words Transcript validation: two-researchers Anonymised transcript validation: two-researchers & interviewee Interview language: English ABBREVIATIONS I - interviewer R - interviewee's response [text] - anonymised excerpt <...> - excerpt omitted for anonymisation purposes (e.g., personal, or other-specific data) - technical remarks (e.g., pause, smiling, rebuking) {...} - excerpt omitted to enhance coherent reading {text} - clarification inserted to enhance coherent reading [1] A knowledgeable person denominates a person who has a deep knowledge in research integrity in the same country as an interviewee. I: OK, so we we can start uh the interview and uh... The first question would be what are... are... Sorry... Could you shortly tell me about your path to your role in [research funding organisation]? R: Uh, OK. So, currently I'm a [manager] in [a specific unit of the research funding organisation]. And I can tell you a bit more about that role in a minute, but my path started by quite a while ago now. I just realised the number of years. Um Where I, I did my PhD in [a specific field]. Um... And then my PhD was in [a specific field], so really lab-based work. Um... As I got into my <...> postdoc <...> I've had, when I eh... was at that stage, I was starting to interact more eh... with a kind of the... ehm... applied, I suppose you called applied research <...>. So that was all very interesting, but I was already at that stage of realising I, I don't, I don't want to be a PI {principal investigator}. I'm very much interested in research. Also, um I like the broader sweep of research rather than something so specific. <...>. Um so... I started to look a little bit at what other opportunities were out there. Um and before long, I saw roles in the [research funding organisation] and I, I learned a bit more about what the [research funding organisation] do. And I was very interested. So, I applied there and now it was successful. So that's going back... Fuh... nearly [number of] years now. I mean, with the [research funding organisation] already. Um... So... my first role <...> {involved} national policy, engaging lots of different stakeholders and so on. I, at the same time, I was also [involved in various grant management process roles] <...>. So, um I was involved in all aspects of of of the grant process at that stage. And then in... I think it was around [year] um we we split those, those functions. And I became the [unit head]. So, I established that from scratch. It{'s} kind of a new unit. Um... That uh dealt with all all management of all awards. Um there were some... actually still that fell outside of that because our unit was quite small, and we didn't have the capacity to look after absolutely everything. <...>. And so, it's quite... we have a h... a very... We do a lot . So, um we are... from con... from< the issuing of contracts, right through to all of the management, um... you know, the annual reporting, payments, interim reviews where we gather international experts, um and of grant managements and then evaluation activities as well. Um because of... I suppose in nature of our obligations the management always comes first. So unfortunately resource wise we get to do less evaluation than we would like, but we have gotten to do some very interesting pieces of work up in recent years. Um... And then, of course, underpinning all of that grant management is the policy side of it. Um so all of uh... kind of the grant management policies fall under my remit, and one of those would be research integrity. <...>. Um. So, I am very fortunate to to um work with [name of knowledgeable person [1]] and um in the last... it... [number of] years, I suppose that I've become involved with [her/him] on the research integrity side of things. Um and it's really interesting, and I'm, I'm really glad I have gotten involved at something... It's, it's, it's uh... a wonderful balance between relevant, very relevant and necessary to my day job, if you like, but also academically very interesting. Um so something that I can actually... that I care for sure um... So... no, I really I'm I'm really um enjoyed the opportunity to be involved. So, what my role in terms of what my my job requires me to do is is the implementation of our policy in relation to research integrity. Um... so that is, that is what... that's... where I am in research integrity and I'm involved with then international, national groups with [name of knowledgeable person]. So that's... my, my back story . I: OK. Uh thank you very much. I think we will come back to some some aspects during the interview but uh... do you consider yourself a promoter of research integrity? R: I do now, absolutely, yes um. I: Could you elaborate on it a bit? Why and how? R: Um, I guess it's two parts of it. And one is, it's my job. So, I am the person in the organisation tasked with ensuring that our funded researchers are aware of the need to undertake training, and it's really, I suppose, in my role, in my formal role relations, it's really around the training, making sure people are doing the training. Um so in that sense, I am absolutely promoting it. So whatever processes we put into place to ensure that, for example, <...> that people undertake training. Um funded researchers and their teams undertake train... trainings. So that's part of our promotion. Our promotion is is done in that kind of leading way <...>. Um... for example <...> in [year] when we started to really promote it as such uh... the first thing was just a reminder emails to people that we will in the future be going mandatory and this is how you go about getting training and so on. Uh but the other thing was a leading question in ann... in our annual reports: Are you aware of... that you can access training, and have you undertaken? and some things like that. So, it wasn't like "You're in big trouble". It's, you know, some questions, kind of just to build awareness and and we've continued in that way. So that's where I'm a promoter in that way. Um... And then I... I would say that in... and the other way is... that now that I have... uh a lot more knowledge and a lot more interest in the area I do promote this in my engagements with people. And I have uh... I've done presentations and um... I hope to submit an abstract to uh our funders' um meeting, where funders come together to to discuss, you know, some of the policy issues. So, so things like that. Um... Yeah. I: Uh... What would you say are the most important goals that you strive achieve in promoting research integrity? R: So I suppose the end goal is obviously very important. I mean, that's that's and just to... to state the obvious integrity of the research records angle. But at the initial goal is awar... for me is awareness raising. Because I don't think people set out for the most part to do things badly. It's lack of awareness of where they are doing things badly, that is probably one of the biggest problems. Um... another big problem is the assumption that it is what it is, and you can't change. So, what I'm talking about, there is the system, so pressure to publish, not publishing negative results. Things like that. Um... So, I, I, I imagine a lot of people, um particularly younger... younger researchers, maybe mid-career researchers who feel constrained by battlefield, but that's the system. I mean, there's not much I can do about it. Um so that's... so promotion is really important. Um to raise that awareness, so that... in two parts, one of the things that... are there that you should be doing and are easy, relatively easy to abide by. If you're aware of them. And then the the idea that you can actually... hopefully change the system as a, as a group. Um and in the same way with open research and all of those things that people see as as huge tasks. Uphill battles. But um... It can be done. I: Uh... What what are the areas that you find the most meaningful to focus on in promoting research integrity? R: Mh... Oh, I do... I do find it interesting to... we have also focused on the... research association roles, like our own. The people who work in our [research funding organsation], um promoting it amongst those... and work very closely linked with the [unit of a governmental body]. And then there is <...> [social services] provider in this country, uh and they have recently established [research-related] function. Um... So, it's engaging with those people as well as the researchers, I mean, the researchers have to do it. You know, it's now mandatory for... by most funding agencies. But engage with these other organisations where people are so closely linked in... with research through their roles and uh... Well, actually you need to do it, too. You need to lead by example, and you need to be aware. Um... So, I find that... I think that's important. Um... And I think just... the raising of awareness with researchers. Because I was one and I would have kind of held myself to high standards very much. But there would have been plenty that I wasn't aware of back then and looking at research integrity and looking back at my research... It's not... I'm not proud of them . But they're not terrible things. It's like I could interpret my lab book, but I don't know if anybody else could. That type of example. Um... So, you know, just raising that awareness um amongst people I think it's it's just really... it's very important. And... like all people in all roles, they're very... researchers are very busy and they're focusing on the the the main thing, which is kind of the research question. So, all of that extra stuff that goes with that it's easy to drop that or to pay less attention to that. But in actual fact it makes... makes it easier... in the long run, if you do all that as well, things will run more smoothly, so, you know, it is... It's it's it's important to to to make people aware of that. I: Uh what... What would you say are per... personal expectations in promoting research integrity? R: Personal expectations... I: Yes, your more personal. What what do you expect? R: What I will get or...? I: Uh... Probably the result from your role as as as a research pro... research integrity promoter. R: The result? Um... I think it's the improvement in quality. Um... And it's see... and then... I would love to see more of those n... I, I don't like saying negative results, but... those um non exciting results published. And we have a platform {of open data} now. Going to be open research platform where uh... It's an open publishing platform basically. <...> And there's various formats, so <...> that's all sorts of things they can publish there, so I would love to see more of... more publications on that of of... Basically that they're publishing everything that is of high quality, whether or not it's em... an exciting result or not. And... Also I'm, yeah, I am... Just that increase in quality vers... I mean, how are you gonna measure that? You know, the... that they... that by promoting this we we see better, higher quality research being produced. Um... But also, I think it'd be nice eh that for researchers to feel more engaged. I think. With that bigger picture, with those funders, with all stakeholders. Because we all are working to the same end. Um... So that I guess, more collaboration, more sharing, more engagement, those those kinds of things. I: Uh, and you just now mentioned that in in your previous answer that one of the parts of your role as research integrity promoter is uh engagement with people. Uh... {...} Could you also elaborate a little bit more on that? So, what what do you see in in in the engagement with people? R: Um... I: What's meaningful there? R: Uh... the the common interest, I suppose, in doing the best. Uh... um... Kin... Yeah, promoting the the research in its best form. And sure, I suppose the minimising research waste. Something that is a very... I mean that is, I suppose... from the research integrity perspective one of the things that drives me the most is that minimising waste. So, there's lots of... I, I very rarely think about the misconduct side of it. I have to, it's part of my job and we have our policy, on dealing with misconduct, but I actually, it's research integrity that really crosses my mind. What I think about is the day-to-day minor things that add up to um... a lot, whole lot of waste. So, um... Yeah, that is, that's the thing that that... that it sits on for me. Is that a... so you have the glaziou papers and all of that, of the masses of um waste, the 75% research waste in clinical research and so on. And so... I... you know, it just... as we talked through, so it's reminding me, actually, yes, what what uh that is what it's it's it's it revolves around for me, so it's... And so, I... engaging whether it's with um colleagues or, you know, people in other agencies or other uh similar roles around, how do we get to the bottom of this problem. Or any researchers who... I don't know if how... to the for... how much to the forefront of the re... our research communities mind it. There is I know certain... in certain areas it's absolutely. Um... But kind of bringing research in sort of that way of thinking as well. That it's not just about... it is actually not really about misconduct that we're talking here. It's about just improving everything, improving all the little things and reducing the waste in the repetition and the time. Everyd... so so many waste factors that pattern involves. I: Ok. Um... Uh what constraints or obstacles do you face when promoting research integrity? R: Um I think again that people's time is always a factor to engage, time to engage. So, for also promotions, our training, as I said, uh so people making their time to tr... to do the training. I think for the most part people are enthusiastic and that's a good idea. I will do it. But then there can be um... there can be an issue. That's particularly with or... um... colleagues, so the people who don't have to do it. So, you know, if the researchers are mandated to do it, they're gonna do it. And that just... I mean, that's one of... that's very effective in this country. I know it's not the same in every country. So, when things are mandated, [my country's] people tend to comply. Um... So... uh... that works um but so but when you take that out and so if you're talking about um... other um... adminis... research administrators, it's a practice: "Yeah, good that... yes we'll do... I'm, I'm... thank you for that, we do that", but then it doesn't get done. So that's one thing. It's peoples' time. These people, they are not recognising that it applies to his role. That um... Even if you do the... you know, you know you, you have the heigh... hold yourself to the highest standards, it's still no harm and actually refreshing on the principles and reminding yourself regularly what it's about. So, people who think they know it's... they already know, they don't need to talk about this, they already know what research integrity is. It's not a problem. But they... Do they always? I mean, maybe they're talking about misconduct as opposed to this... big, you know... uh I don't know, just all these tiny little factors that come together to make a huge um... dent in our... in the integrity of research. I: What are the the tough... toughest decisions you had to make as a research integrity promoter? R: I don't think... don't think there have been particularly tough decisions... At this stage I think... I suppose it's... given my position as a... in a [research funding organisation] we make the decisions very... relatively easily about... OK, this must be done or this... And also, we always take a careful approach. We never just turn around one day and go right "You have to do this". So, we kind of easily and gently. Um... So, I would say as yet there haven't been any really tough decisions. Um... The... Think One that I battle with is... it's those colleagues who aren't mandated to do it. Whether I... should we... you just got... You have to. You have to. No more, no more excuses. You have to do it, too. Um... And that is what I grapple with. I haven't gone there yet. The gently, softly approach is is getting there, slowly but surely. But there are still some... "We haven't done that and haven't explained why because..." {meaning the approach of colleagues who are not mandated to take training} um... That's what I ask of them is to, if they're not gonna do it, why aren't they gonna do it. So that I can understand and do better. But I'm not getting the answers. So that's... that's a challenge. Um... And... Yes, so that's the... a decision yet to be made . So, whether to just go... "you have to" or send send the boss after them. I don't know. Um... Yeah, that'd be it. I am promoting it. I: Does it cause some, I don't know, feelings when you... when you deal with this kind of situations? R: Uh... I suppose... Just that, I mean, they're colleagues and it's very difficult to tell colleagues what to do, for something like that. And especially it's coming from us. These are not people all involved in funding or agencies, much broader than that. So, there are people actually involved in research. Um so... Yeah, it's... there is that feeling of telling people what to do um and... The worry of sounding like the... almost the schoolteacher. Kind of "You must do this" and "I know better than you". {...} And that's a fear as well within... amongst the community. It's like, sometimes the funder is... well, when you want money, they are your best friend um... but at times the funder can be the big bad funder, you know, because we hold the purse strings. So, there is also that kind of... I would, I mean, don't lose any sleep over it, but uh that idea that the researchers like "You... you don't even do research; you just manage the money. So, who are you to tell us what is research integrity. We are researchers, we know what research integrity is". Um, so that, that kind of... I: How how do you deal with this kind of feeling? R: Yeah. Um... Part of it is trying to keep... more open... not overly formal research.... relationships with with people you're dealing with. Um... So, while statement in a, in a contract has to be very formal and a policy statement is quite formal, when you're engaging with people around that, it's to... to try and be a little less formal in your, in your exchange. Um... Just to remind them that you are actually people, too, with um the same goal ultimately, which is producing really good research. To uh um support, help decisions and and... but so... I think that said, I mean, we as a funder, we do try not to be always there, you know, the funder on high, telling them what to do. We do try to be engaged, too. Communicate, specifically, open. Often, of course, it could get lost. I mean, we have to have very structured ways of saying things when it comes to money, you know, or decisions, or recommendations or whatever, or conditions rather... um... So naturally there's quite a bit of formality, but we do try to, where it's appropriate, to to not have that. I: Uh what motivates you in your work? R: What motivates... I: Mh. R: I think it is, of course, the big picture. So... and it always motivated me from before it, when I was in um... deciding what to do in college and in university. It was about that greater good. So, it is the greater good and so... In this domain, in health research, it is improving people's health. I mean, I totally subscribe to or or um... the health research forwards tag... taglines, which are really about uh... now I forgot the tagline, um, but it's 'better research for better health', basically it's what it boils down to. Um... And that's that's what motivates me. And it's easily, it's easy to um... to not see that in the day-to-day project, but just a quick step back, a step outside the door to any, any event or conference or... and it will, it quickly reminds you why um you're doing it. Um... And then the, I suppose, from the research integrity, I mean, I think... that aspect of it is extremely motivating when you see the potential for damage and and messing up this research record and uh losing all the benefits you... so careful researchers invest so much time and effort. And um... then it... for, for what? If, if it's wasted? The other thing is, of course, I'm motivated by... my experience and of seeing how my... people of... colleagues, friends that I did my research with, how who stayed in research or who did stay in research until it finally wore them down. Um... how they have been... and a lot of it has to do with the um reward system and the... the pressure to publish. Um... How people are promoted. The career pathways. All of that. And I think it's very tied with research integrity. So, I would know of friends, of colleagues, if you like, who had the highest tier standards and and just did... just excelled at everything. Um, they did... um... but they didn't have the um... For one thing, they had to have everything perfect before they would uh... send it for publication or whatever, which meant they were behind maybe in publications. Um... and the other thing they didn't maybe do... would sell themselves in that way bec... So that wasn't their their strong quality, and that's fine. So, they were never at the top, even though their research was so so excellent. Um, and that's the way the system is built. Um... So that motivates me that the more we promote research integrity, open research, ensuring value and not uh wasting resources, people like that will have their place and will be able to continue to do excellent research. So that's the motivation as well. I: Uh... Maybe a related question. What makes you persistent in performing your duties, duties as promoter of research integrity? What keeps you going? R: I believe in it. I believe in it. Um... Because it's all a waste of time otherwise. The whole, the whole, the whole thing, the whole charade, the funding research, uh, promoting research, using all of that evidence for health... Um... It's a complete waste if it's not done properly. And then makes a mockery of everything else we do. So that keeps me going. That's... that keeps me interested and motivated to, to do this. Um... Because this... Yeah. There's no point otherwise. If it's, if half the research is... even... if it's not intentional, but is flawed and people are building on that, um... And things like that the... uh the current pandemic... so uh we can see how false, false, false news , all the false information and i... incomplete evidence and the damage that can cause, and people getting ahold of that. Not knowing what they're talking about and promoting that as as as a cure or cause or whatever, when what you need is really rigorous evidence-based information. Um, and there's a lot of people doing that. And... and there is a course of risk to research integrity, the cut... cutting of corners at times like this. But again, it's reminding people and help to take research integrity into account in time like this to ensure that everything is... can be used, that, you know, that... we're looking at... to the right information. So, it's just uh kind of uh really... It's a good example in, in, you know, in the short term of where all these things come into play. So, to avoid the scenarios like that in the longer term. And over the years it could be wasting so much. Money and people's health, and time, and everything. Uh... If it's not based on good practice. I: Um... What would you say are the greatest uh... your greatest achievements in promoting research integrity? R: Ha ha . Um... It's early days. So, I haven't gotten major achievements yet, I have to say. I've only been involved with this for [number of] years. But I think one thing was recognising that it's not just the researchers. Um... So... Last year when I was tasked with ensuring that we got the research community uh doing this training and everything, um, it encouraged me that: What about all of the administrators? What about our own colleagues? What about people in the health services, who are involved with research uh management? Um... So, I think those quite important because... 'cause it's all very well to tell the research they have to do it. But if if the other half of... is not recognising that we all play a role in the research process. Um... and we should, even if we don't need to know how to design study, we should be aware of the factors that are important. Um... So, I think that that is an important achievement. Um... Yeah, like I say, it's just been [number of] years so I had, had a small part of my job so I don't think I have any of the major achievements in that. Yet. But I am looking at the uptick of the training and looking at uh people's views on how it's impacted their research. So, I think that should be interesting and able to kind of pool something useful together from that in the next few months, so maybe that will be. I: Yeah, so so my next question is, what about... uh the future. Yeah. What what else uh or what would you like to achieve in the future in in in this position? R: So in the short term or medium term I think it's... it does... it's that kind of... there's an academic interest. So, it's looking at what um... uh... looking at the success of of of what we've done and then looking at what the uptake levels with... over the years with our promotion. So since... so we have {recent} information <...>. So, since we started promoting it has there been increased uptake since we mandated it. Um and just getting sense of what were the views around that. Um... So that's kind of more... almost... I mean, it will certainly inform future strategies, but in the medium term it's almost an academic exercise. We're quite interested. Um... But also, then, I'm linked into the [network], which is kind of the national group overseeing research integrity. So, we don't have um a national office as such, or um... like a government body on this. But what we have is the [network] um and that um... that answers to the [national strategy]. <...>. So, they are also very keen to know uh the impact of the training. Because we've all been working together to to roll out the training and all institutions... um... And... so we're working with them. I think really to kind of look at the bigger picture. So, it won't be just about my promotion. It'll be about all of that effort together and how that... the impact of that on on the uptake, and on on people's perceived value of of the training. So those are the kinds of things and then... for myself uh... personally, I would like to follow in the footsteps of [name of knowledgeable person] . I think [s/he's] doing an amazing job and um... I, I feel very lucky to have kind of uh... become [her/his]... understudy in this area. And because this is a huge area and there's no dedicated role in... or agency, so there's more than enough for for both of us to to to work on there. Um... and I guess I would like to see that we... stemming from this and the value in research um... side of things that we would actually move to funding some research on research in the [research funding organisation]. Currently we don't fund research on research. We fund a lot of... we fund evidence, syntheses and things like that and and there's great potential for some of those groups to do research on research um... which would really help with the quality. Um... I don't... given the budget and times about to enter I don't know how likely that is, but it's something over time that we can work on. And that would certainly be a vision for the future, so... Um, as an agency, we probably wouldn't actually do the research ourselves, just fair enough. Um... but the idea that we would be funders or commissioners or at that. I think it's really important to to build that up. It just really adds to the quality and I am... I'm sure there's a whole other set of questions on how do you decide which, which research on research needs to be done and prioritised. Um... So. I: Um, uh... what do you get from this job? R: What do I get from this job... {...} I do get job satisfaction, definitely from that bigger picture piece. Um... Because like everyone I... I h... I'm... there are days I get frail. It's like I really want to throw in the towel and and just hang out with my children for the rest of my life. Of course, they will grow up and go away. But anyway. But no, I do find... That it's very... The exchange of ideas and... being at the... kind of leading edge of change in um... research funding is, is very motivating. Um... So, in... in the [research funding organisation] we tend to be quite progressive, quite quick to implement things, like our our [open platforms] <...>. Um... We're doing a lot on the fair data at the moment and we... and data management plan. Now, other countries... years ahead of us. But um... at the same time for our scale and our size, we tend to be quite progressive, I should say. Um... And then we have um... like more at the, at the forefront of the the research integrity movement, so I think that's that's very... it just keeps it really interesting, I think is what I'm trying to get out. There's there's always so... When you have those um... weeks of one grant after another and another, and reports or whatever, that's that's fine, but there's always other things happening. That are really interesting and important at the same time. Um... And... it opens my mind a lot. I think in research you can get very um... kind of tunnel vision. But with this just opens it up. Um... There was a time when I said: "Open access? It'll never happen". It was a time when I questioned: "What? What gender problem? What are you talking about?". Um, so all of those things. So, I find working in this agency opens my mind much more quickly. Um and again it's probably the the awareness level here. You know, because you're closer to these things, you find out more, you find out quicker. Um... And... Yeah, just being, yeah, bei... being engaged with what's happening, you know, um... Being able to engage with policymakers directly, we have done that quite a bit more uh in recent years, we work closely... linked to the [unit of a governmental body]. Uh... So that's all very satisfying. But... I I guess, too, for me what is it it's to do something worthwhile, I guess. Um... And... especially at a time like this. I mean, it crossed my mind the other day... Roles... it's... and it's trying not to be kind of a snob about it, but certain other roles wouldn't appeal to me to kind of be getting up... not an... every morning to do a 9 to 5 and something like, I don't know... selling clothes or whatever, you know it's not important. It's not... None of these... these things are no longer important. And it kind of uh... I think this being at... us all being at home and everything has brought a lot of this... what's actually important. And a lot of that superficial uh... stuff is not important. But our, our job still is. And what we do still is. Um... Because... yeah, fighting the good fight . I: Yeah, and and you just mentioned that it's like worthwhile. Could you elaborate? So... what do you mean by worthwhile? For for whom and how? R: Um, yeah, I know it's a good question and and it's, it's really interesting. It's like a a psychology, uh psychotherapy session here {...} So I could say that's a genui... I do, I do wonder... it's... is it, what... you know, why do I nee... why do I need uh.... this tough role to to to be... Um but... I have a notion that it's worthwhile for the greater good, as I was saying, that kind of... That we're all contributing a little piece to make the best research which ultimately will improve healthcare or in some way have a positive impact on people's health. So, I suppose that's my little contribution and that that's what I'm saying is worthwhile. And I, I couldn't think of a good example 'cause I didn't want to offend anybody, but that, you know, I suppose, where's all this... the consumeris... say, the consumer society that we live in, where it's all about what you have and what you buy and all those things. So being in any of those kind of industries... would appeal less to me, I think. Um... even though I'm fully engaged and the most of the time and I want, I want, I want to push. Um... For me, I don't think it would be very satisfying. And I had, you know, in my my my temporary jobs way back in time, in in various jobs like that and it was not satisfying, regardless of the low wages and what not... Um... to be using your brain and contributing, I think, in a positive way, yeah. But like... yeah. I: Uh... You also also mentioned the... as an important thing leading a change? R: Mh, yes, absolutely. I: Could you also elaborate a little bit on that? R: Um... It's I think it, yeah, if you really believe in something you want... you want to show, show that... show this... the the right path. Um nobody like... yeah, if... it... In our organisation, we do beat the way a lot of the time, and I've seen it work in practice. So, I don't think it's kind of too aspirational to say you want to lead in positive change. Um... And I think, yeah, when you do, when you are aware of of the importance of something, it is... I think I would consider myself very lucky to be in a position where I can lead some of the change. Um... But I don't have to lead it, either. It's about... how to be part of it. But it's interesting to to be involved at that level where you can make a difference, I suppose, in theory. I don't know how much actually. I: Cou... could you give some examples? Let's say what what would you consider the the most important changes that uh... you in your position or together with the agency made in regard of research integrity? R: I think it's just a uh one of the big ones would be facilitating, along with other agencies and institutions, uh... the national uptake of training. This... in the [number of] years... and now it's only a course training. It's it's... it's a kind of minimal training, you know, that we rolled nationally and and many people have built some lesson, incorporations into their programs. The point is really that every... not just funded researchers, actually, 'cause they... the universities are are involved, but all the... the majority of researchers in the country will have undertaken the training. Certainly uh... in the... scientists... the health sciences, biomedical, engineering. Um... Yeah, all the STEM, I guess, because I'm thinking of other agency that, that's involved with this. Um... So that would be thousands of researchers over last [number of] years who have taken the training. So... That's... Just awareness raising alone... amongst them is that that's a huge achievement, I think. So even if many of them just took that core 40-minute course um... it's a way to raise awareness amongst so many people. So, I think that's a really... that's really important. Um... And then I think the other... another important thing is just tying it in with the other... Uh... So, we had uh... an event last year where we joined with the [topic-specific event]. So, it's... [topic areas of other organisations]. Um so it's kind of linking in with that and linking in then eva... evaluation or the value in research um... group, so bringing all of these things together so that there's a bit more joined up thinking. That's also been important. I mean, it's early days with that kind of integration, but it's... you know it, it's... because they are all really looking for the same thing at the end of the day, so there's a lot of overlap. So that's been important. I: Um, I don't know if you will remember but at some point uh... you said that, well, there are moments that you just want to be home with children or something like that. {...} Yeah, so to what does it relate? I mean, it's probably also relates to some difficult situations in work or I don't know... What's behind that? R: Work. {...} Who wants to work? I: OK . R: Um... N... It is... No, it's just that kind of... we get... the grass is always greener if... yeah, so sometimes work is... you know, when it's just the repetitive stuff, or, you know, you're signing up on on payments and numbers and cross-checking things, it can get a bit... or if you're just dealing with the challenging email uh... conversation, you know, where people aren't understanding or whatever it might be. Those kind of things, um... that might make you just want to, yeah, shut it all down for the day. Um... Though I would say being at home with kids for the last few months, it's been an eye opener. As in the... uh... Being happy to come to... upstairs to work for a few hours, as well. So, it is obviously I do get something from it. So that is... you know, that I might do... It might be in a little less aware of things through [temporary] leave, and now I was aware that... work is important to me. And I enjoy being with my colleagues and and... this stimulation and all of that. Um but also, again, through the last few months, that those few hours of focused work uh are important to me. Um... I would say part of it is personality. Um sometimes dealing with people, challenging people can be wearing. And I don't have too much of it. Probably everybody has it a bit in their job. Um... So... I don't thrive on that. I do not thrive on that. But you get all the good and the bad with um any role, so you can't expect it to be all the good stuff all the time. I consider the research integrity stuff t... part of the good stuff because I'm very interested in it. I'm very motivated to, to do that work. Um... So, yeah. I: Um... How are you appreciated for your work? What credit do you get for it? R: I do get good credit for my work because it's recognised that... um... I have a huge portfolio. So as yet I don't know if I'm... how much credit I'm getting for my research integrity work because it's one part of it. Uh... but the the whole portfolio, yeah, I, I, I think it's recognised. Um... And part of that is, is... by peop... kind of people taking... being interested in my views on things. So that's one way it's shown. So, what do you think of that and how should we, you know, what would be the impact? Or whatever. So that means recognition of my ability and my contribution. Um... Uh... But... Yeah, I think that that's the extent of it. We don't get a lot of uh, we don't get a whole lot of pats on the back for our, our achievements. But again, most of the people I work with are very motivated by what we're doing so they don't seek that either. They don't expect it. Though from time to time there, you know, it would be, you know, nice. Um... And a very positive working relationship with with my line manager, with my boss. So, you know, get positive feedback there as well, you know. Um... Yeah, that's... {...} So that's nice. I do feel recognised that I, that I, what I'm doing is, is, is important. But you know, there's no kind of, you know, prizes or yeah... cheers or anything like that. I: Uh, where {do} this recognition comes from? I mean, from whom? R: Uh... So, I guess peers, uh, at the same level and, also, from more senior, kind of... the next level up. Um... And... Yeah, right up there, if they... right up there, you know, just generally that kind of... Colleagues value your opinion and seek it out, so... any level. I: You also said that it would... sometimes it would be nice to get some some other recognition, yeah? What could that be? I mean, what could be then added value for for you in in in in this work? In what form of recognition? R: You know, I think I'm just voicing other people's opinions there 'cause... heh some of my colleagues in comp... do... get quite put out by the fact that say... Gosh, something big happens in the organisation and the senior people kin... not so much take the credit, but don't mention the fact that people who did all them the actual work. I don't think that bothers me as much as it bothers others. And maybe it 'cause a lot of the work I do is under the radar anyway. So, I don't, I will, I don't expect much thanks for it . Um... And I don't stick my head up above. You know, looking, waiting for it either. So, I think I might have been just uh channelling my colleagues there because, you know, I'm not... I don't mind. The recognition comes, I suppose... when good opportunities come along that I'm considered, that's that's that would be important. Um... That would be the bait, that would be the main one. So, whether it's an opportunity to work in an interesting area or give a presentation or whatever, it might be that I am considered, and I feel I have been um... And then the other thing is um... if those opportunities for promotion would ever come along that if I'm, you know, that I might be considered as well. But... that's that's the level of... of um... recognition that I would appreciate. And I do definitely get to some degree get that I think. I: Uh... How could your role as promoter of research integrity could affect your career in the future? R: I... I think it could be very positive, that it... um... It cre... it creates a specialist area for me, so... I have my specialist area already <...> and I have... but that doesn't exactly rock my world, you know. Yeah . So... so I have, I have specialist expertise but to develop another area of specialist expertise would open more doors, I think. Um, it would just, it would give me greater satisfaction in the work I do, as well, because confidence comes from really knowing what you're talking about and and an interest in all of that so. Um... That's it, yeah, I would, I would be keen to to build it as one of my specialist areas and at the moment it looks like I can do that. We'll see what changes, you know, this is always different drivers and and needs in in... the organisation, it's always changing. Our new strategy um... is... uh... is is gonna be... we we're gonna work on the implementation plan <...> uh... so there'll be, that'll impact on what I have to do, what I get to do, whatever. But definitely developing... and I haven't quite pinned it down yet , but if the research integrity stroke value in research expertise, so whatever that might look like. Um... And I would like to see... stepping in, it... continue to be a big part of my job. Um... There isn't much scope for specialist roles in the organisation. I mean, it's always just a part of what you're doing. But you never know what opportunities that might open up outside. Um... Um... Yeah. So, it's just we... we are not at... like... the... It's a really great place to work where we are and it's like it... Constantly new opportunities like that. So, one isn't quick to be kind of like looking. I'm, I'm, you know, outside for a new opportunity. The more I can build this opportunity inside at the moment is... will be great and then it might make something up in the future for something else. I: Yeah, and and so so just to clarify, so you would talk about this research integrity as as a special expertise field, right? R: Yes, yeah. Um and what I'm, what I'm talk... because... so it's less about, as I mentioned before, the misconduct and understanding cases, so that's not really what it's about. It's more about this kind of... It's more about the good research practice and the link to uh value in research actually, and that is more relevant to the work we do, because thankfully we don't have lots of cases. And also, we don't have role in those cases. That is with the institution, so our policy is that... this is we only want to know about a confirmed case. We don't know what allegations. You only come to us when there's a confirmed case. So thankfully that is extremely rare. Um... I made changes as far as the structures for investigating, all these, are are are better and everything. So that's kind of... as far as I'm concerned, as I mentioned earlier, that's a small part, but it's really about the the good practices side of it. Um... and then that link into ensuring... that reducing waste, ensuring value. Um, so that's kind of where I would see, where I would like to grow my expertise. And I think that's very linked in with grant management. So, it's, it's good fit in terms of the policies around, just conducting your research properly. So, it does fit really nicely, that its' not that I'm just going off on some tangent. Um... So yeah. I think that's where I'd like to sort out of this. And I suppose in in in relation to the... what I actually do, it's um... I guess... yes, seeing how we can implement those, or encourage that practice in the grants. So are there innovative ways in which we can just make improvements there. {...} Have... how we're going tie it all into evaluation yet, but I guess it would be evaluating... uh... the various things we do, the various initiatives we take to improve the practice. I: Um... We are moving to the end of interview more or less. Um, so one of my last questions. Uh, what does your work mean to you? R: What does my work mean to me? I: And in particular what is related to promotion of research integrity? R: It's interesting how I can see you've asked this question in a number of different ways, so I'm trying to remember what I said. {...} Uh... So in relation to promotion of research integrity... It's doing my bit to ensure that everything is of the highest standard, the best quality, that the evidence is use... is, is useful. And I think that's what it boils down to. The evidence needs to be robust. So, we're giving this evidence to policy makers or clinicians or whoever. It needs to be of the highest quality, reliable and... and... transparent as in that they can... they can understand, they can understand where it's come from, how to use it and all of that. So... That's what it means to me. Is having my part and ensuring that. I think. I: Um, so this is it from my side, uh, but maybe there is something that is important for you, but we haven't asked about it? Maybe there is something that that you were thinking throughout the interview that... waiting for us to ask, but we never did? R: I don't think so. I'm just kind of looking here. I had some notes earlier to... Yeah, I don't, I don't think so. I think... I mean I wasn't sure what way the questions were going to be, so it's been interesting to see that it's very much a personal view of... of the role. Um... Would be very interested to see the outcome. Um... So, what is the plan? I: Uh... So, I, I will probably turn off uh the recording now because it will... So, thank you for for the interview. R: I hope it was helpful. I: Yes, it wa... it it definitely was. OK. Just a moment. {Pause of the recording} {Restart of the recording. R wanted to provide an afterthought} I: Yeah. Yes, the thing that... R: I think it's probably interesting, and from the point of view of the various people that you will talk to, and I... part of my motivation, not... more of the... subconscious motivation is being something of a perfectionist when it comes to... um... You know, that everything needs to be done right. I'm, I, I would be quite, you know, I'd be a rule abider, I, I... Ok {technical issue, overlap of the record of a paused recording segment. No text loss} I: Yeah, Sorry. R: Yeah, you know, I just think it'd be interesting, and, I mean, I don't know if it's something you can really get into, I mean, but personality traits that that drive people to be interested in this type of thing, and I think... certainly like... um and one of the reasons I am successful in [my role] is attention to detail. Um... you know it's just spotting those, those issues in hundreds of grants. You know, it's... it's that that kind of thing jumps out or two, and you notice it. So, I think that attention to detail and and... kind of wanting things to be right you know, that I imagine is common to... to many who are are motivated to do this role. Just an afterthought . I: Thank you so much.