KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

Okay, the recorder is working.  That’s all good.  Could you say your name and spell it for the tape, please?
Full name?
Yeah.
[anon] 
Okay, cool.  Thank you.  And can you just confirm for the recording that you have signed the consent form?
I have.
Excellent, thank you.  What is it that you do within games development?  What’s your professional practice?
I’m an artist.
Okay, and so that’s creating 3D assets, 2D assets?
Mostly 2D.  I’m currently also a team leader.
Okay, so how would you describe the role of a team leader within games development?
A lot of agile planning and a lot of presentations, a lot of talking in public (laughs).
Okay.  And how did you come to be a games developer?
I kind of fell into it, to be honest.  I was in med school and I wanted to change careers, and a friend of mine took me to the open day at NHTV and I fell in love and I knew that this was what I wanted to do, so I gave it a try and it turned out it was a really good choice.
So you were training in medicine before you started here?
Yeah.
Okay.  Had you ever made games before you came here?
No, no, zero experience, just 2D art, just drawing and painting.
Okay, cool.  And were you trained in that at school as well or beforehand?
No, no.
So it’s entirely self-taught?
Yes.
Interesting.  Cool.  What do you think is important for a developer such as yourself to know to get into the industry?
Wow, what’s important to know?  Whether or not you like being in the industry, I guess.  You don’t necessarily need to enjoy playing games, but you need to understand the appeal of them and play into that.
And what would you describe as the appeal of playing games?
Well, there are a couple of different ways you can approach it.  You can say some of them are educational and there can be an appeal, like they can learn something from it while doing something that is fun, but it can also very much be an escape.  I usually play games because it just takes your mind off of it.  It’s basically like reading a book only far more interactive.
Okay.  Do you think that in the last sort of 10 years or so, 20 years, that the amount of game playing is affecting how people use their leisure time?
Yes.
In what way would you say that’s happening?
Well, because the game industry is broadening their field so when I first started getting into games, it was mostly just a lot of shooters and then a few little niche games and the rest was just very generic and very much marketed towards boys.  And that has very much widened.  Like there are so many games that can appeal to so many different people that more people have started playing games and more people find games they enjoy so they’ll play more.
Is there anything that you would kind of describe typically as a player of video games?  Like who plays them?
Who plays them?
Yeah.
Everyone in my near vicinity.  It’s like the only people I know who don’t play a game every once in a while, not even a mobile game or anything, are people who are deterred by sort of the name it’s gotten, that it has a negative influence on your or it’s just for nerds and losers, but even those people, once you present them with a game that fits with their interest and what they like then they’re hooked.
Would you describe being hooked on a game as a good thing?
Yes.  Depends to what degree (laughs).
Yeah.  Do you think that regularly it’s the healthy side of that kind of balance or—?
Yeah, yeah, I would say so.
Okay, cool.  What sort of genres of games do you think are most important at the moment in video game industry?
Well, you see a huge rise in the narrative-driven games and that, to me, is a very good improvement.  Like that’s something I very much enjoy and you see that market grow.  And also the more emotionally driven games.
Could you describe kind of how narrative is being used in games at the moment or what way does it get involved?
There’s more narrative, more interesting characters, more diverse characters, so people don’t just play a game to be in a different world, but they see people they recognise.  Like they can see themselves in a game and I think that also really helps with the gaming industry.
And that’s also sort of where the emotional context comes from as well?
Mmm.
Okay.  Cool.  How long have you been playing games?
Since high school.  I started pretty late playing games.
How many years ago was that?
Ages.  No, let’s say ten years.
About ten years, okay.  Have you seen the games world change much other than the narrative, or is that the main kind of thing you’d say?
Well, quality has improved drastically.
Yeah.  Could you define what ways the quality has changed?
Well, the consoles are getting stronger so they can handle higher graphics, more faster environment and faster rendering and just it makes the whole game play far more immersive.
Okay, so it’s mostly the visual qualities have improved?
Yeah, I’m an artist, so visual quality is…
Yeah, I do notice whenever I talk to artists…
Yeah, there’s a—
…there is a very specific focus in their art.
It’s so much prettier now, yeah.
Would you say the audio has perhaps improved as well?
Quite possibly, yeah.
Quite possibly, okay.  I don’t have an opinion on that one.
Yeah.
It’s pretty.  Okay, fair enough.  You’re familiar with the term applied and serious games?
Yes.
How would you describe your thoughts on those?
Very useful, basically in one way they would be useful.  It’s, yeah, well it’s for anything for training, for educational purposes.  And I find that especially in those areas, creating games that help people learn things, it’s a very effective way to get people to learn things because they’re enjoying themselves while learning.  It’s also very useful for kids, as in I’ve taught myself and you notice the difference when you’re actually trying to teach them on different subjects and when you’re playing a game with them how vastly differently they pick up the information.
So, there you’re kind of saying the enjoyment is a key factor in the learning?
Yeah, yeah, if you have fun learning, you learn faster and it sticks with you better.
Have you used many serious and applied games yourself?
No, not a lot, no.
Okay.  Are there any that you can think of?
The only one that comes to mind is one that my brother used to play because he had some trouble learning in school, especially with spelling, and there was this game with these little animals that would help you learn the words and how to spell them and you had to say it after them and it helped him.  But the thing was in our household, it was very much like he had to do it so it again became a chore.  So it wasn’t as effective as it could have been if it was seen as more of a fun way, I think he would have learnt a lot faster from it.
Do you think that’s something that impacts on the use of serious and applied games in classrooms, for example?
Yeah, I think always, especially in the Netherlands, like we always say we’re allergic to the phrase, “You have to do this or that.”  And I think that goes for most people.  If you tell someone to do something, they’re far less likely to do it than when you give them the option to and they can choose for themselves, like, “I might actually learn something from this.”  So, for example, if you give kids the choice between you can have a regular lesson or you can play the computer game, but then you actually have to play the computer game and they have that choice, they’ll probably all go for the video game, but learn more from it because they feel like it was their choice.  You can trick people into thinking it was their choice, but it will make a difference.
Are you sure you’re not a game designer?  That’s how we think about things (laughs).  So, in a related note, we’ve got a statement here which is games are powerful tools to change behaviours and attitudes for the better.  So, games are powerful tools to change behaviours and attitudes for the better.
You’re sure that’s not stolen from my website?  (laughs)
I will just guess from that that you do agree with this statement then?
Yeah, yeah.  On my portfolio I put they’re powerful tools that can bring about strong emotions and instil new ideas and give people something to think about, so that’s along the same lines, yes.
So, give powerful emotions is very much almost an internal thing, an internal growth.  Instilling new ideas is putting something from the developer’s perspective to the player.
Yeah.
So you’ve got kind of two sides of that.  Do you think this happens with all video games?
No, not with all of them, no.
Do you think there are typical things which are delivered across through video games?
Typical things?
So, for example, do people typically get a positive effect or a negative effect from playing a game, from having emotions stimulated?  What sort of emotions come through?  What sort of things are instilled?
In general I think it’s a positive thing if people experience – well, if they’re experiencing games in general.  It’s been demonified for so long, like the gaming industry and games and they’re evil and they make people aggressive, but I really see it as reading a book, only it’s more interactive.  And just reading a book is not for everyone, but it’s basically the same type of escape.  I think also the reward system is a little bit higher with gaming, which makes it slightly more addictive than books.
Yeah.  Is that a good thing?
It can be as long as you can, you know, moderate it, and that’s something you have to do yourself, which can be tough.
Yeah.  Do you think developers are responsible for that kind of moderation of addiction, or is it purely an individual player?
I would say the player.  I think that’s the same as going to McDonald’s.  Like you can’t sue McDonald’s for you getting fat.  I always have a problem with people thinking like that.  It’s your own task to take care of yourself.  For underage kids it’s their guardian to make sure that that doesn’t happen, like they don’t go overboard, whether it’s McDonald’s or gaming.
So you think that the parents need to show responsibility towards their children’s use of games?
To a certain degree, yeah.
Yeah, okay.  Have you ever played a game with a purpose of learning something?
Not that I can recall.
Do you remember learning things from games?
Small things.  It’s usually when a character says something about a certain topic.  It can be something totally unrelatable and then my brother and I are like, “Is that true?”  Or take the Assassins Creed games, for example, like you go through all these actual historical events and you meet all these actual historical people, like in that case, yeah, yeah, but nothing with the actual purpose of teaching you something.
Yeah, so the entertainment games are teaching you stuff even though you weren’t going to them for that?
Yeah.
Okay.  Let me see.  What do you think are kind of the most important things in your work, so as an artist, what are the key tools, the key techniques, the key approaches that you use?
Make it pretty.
Make it pretty.  How do you define pretty?
It really depends on what kind of game you’re making, but like it’s no wonder that art usually gets the biggest budget when you’re making a game because art sells the game and the game itself can be totally shit, but if you sold it based on the art then at least you got those copies out.  And I noticed that in marketing, a lot of people think like that and it’s – I don’t agree with it but it does really underline the importance of it looking a certain way, because having the visual to complement the story, it really brings it all together, but all aspects needs to be equally good to make an actual good game.
Have you had any use of academic resources to help you understand how to make things prettier, or is it self-taught or through the teachers here.
Through the teachers here.
Yeah, so there’s not academic references or books about this that you’ve been studying?
No, aside from the books that some of the teachers here recommended, especially Martin Beresford has recommended a few books.  Aside from those, no.
Okay, so there’s nothing from like a [Dgraph 0:13:33] or anything like that?
No.
Okay, no.  Okay, cool.
I’m not a huge reader.
That’s fine.  Let’s have a look through here.  Do you think that between serious games and applied games and the kind of the entertainment games and artistic games, do you think they all use similar psychological principles to make them interesting to play?
If they’re doing it right, they do because the game – well, I just mentioned that the games have a very high reward system and that’s what keeps someone playing if you feel like you’re being rewarded for certain things.  And especially in learning tools and games, they should have that.
Yeah.  You say there if they’re doing it right.
Yeah.
How often do you think games developers do it right?
For like learning purposes, learning tools?
Yeah, for—
Or like in general gaming?
In general, in general, I would say.
I think for entertainment games, just purely for entertainment, it’s easier to get it right because then you have certain genres and certain niches that people will find the games that they are looking for.  So, finding a game that fits your – well, your personal reward system, that is far easier, where if you have a learning tool then it’s a tool specifically for that one and it’s usually the only game available on that, like for kids for learning there’s a couple of games.  But if you’re looking for something specific then it’s usually only one or two games, and that either works for you or it doesn’t so you need to apply to a broad enough audience.
Okay, so there’s different types of play that work for different people, but if there’s only one game on a subject matter, that could cause a problem.
Yeah, so they need to look specifically at the people they’re creating it for, and I think that sometimes doesn’t quite go right.
So kind of understanding target audiences and stuff?
Mmm.
Okay.  At the moment you’re working with a team of about 20 people, is that right?
Yeah, 17.
17 people, okay, and you’re making a game as part of your studies.
Yes.
Obviously when you graduate it may well be a similar sort of position, possibly similar scale of teams, possibly more, possibly less.  What do you think are going to be the kind of key pressures that you face in your job here or in the professional world?  What are the things that make life hard or good as a games developer?
Communication.  Communication in the team and that’s something, well, I noticed it this year, especially now that I’m a team leader, you’re very much in charge of that.  And then the blocks, you just notice a huge difference in the amount of work and the quality of the work that’s being produced in the different blocks and whether or not it was a period where everyone was feeling very motivated and the communication was good, and the moments where people are not coming in, a lot of people are sick, people are unmotivated.  There’s a huge difference there.  So the motivation for the whole team, it’s not just your own motivation because you can be super-motivated.  If the rest of the team isn’t, they’re going to drag you down with them or you’re going to be the only one who did a decent job.  So motivation and communication are key.
Okay, interesting.  I think I know what the next answer is going to be to start off with.  So, while working on games, do you recall intentionally addressing issues such as gender, minority representation, political culture or other serious or socially educational topics?
Yes.
Can you give me examples?
Well, that’s basically the whole point of the game we’re working on is that we wanted to address people’s personal problems.  And for each, initially we wanted to do more than one story.  We’re currently only doing one, in which we’re addressing depression as the main issue and our main character is part of a minority and she has a prosthetic limb.  And those two are – we specifically put in to help – well, to have people recognise themselves in games basically, because we didn’t want the story to be about her handicap, but we do want to address it and make sure that it’s a part of her life.  It’s very important and it’s sort of separate from her depression.  So it’s about, you know, making it as broad as possible and not as generic as a lot of people go with their games.
So, your awareness of kind of the generic game hero, who would you describe as the generic game hero?  How would you describe that character?
Cis-het white male.
So cisgender, heterosexual white man?
Yeah.
Okay, fair enough.  What sort of age range?
Of the hero?
Of the character, yeah.
Well, the age ranges can be very broad actually, I noticed, as long as it’s a man.  His female sidekick or companion or whatever, she is usually like from in her 20s, maybe early 30s, anything above that is the elderly witch, anything younger than that is just not included or, you know, jail bait.  But the male hero can be like usually 20 and above and then until they’re like 50, 60, because then they’re the grey foxes and they’re still hot.  The women are the witches but the men are still hot (laughs).
Your awareness of this as a topic, has this come from personal observation, reading other people talking about these or a mix of this kind of stuff?
Definitely a mix.  I mean as a woman you notice that you’re not as represented in games and you see that when there is a girl in there, she is not dressed for the cold and young and, you know, and very stereotypical in her bodily proportions.  That’s why a game like Horizon Zero Dawn was awesome.  I mean you had this woman, fully clothed, kicking ass with no romantic attachment.  That was great, but it’s also definitely hearing from the experiences of others.  I have someone very close to me who is a transgender, so you talk about transgender representation in games and also his frustration about how men are supposed to be, according to media, and games definitely also underline this, although we’re definitely also heading towards games now that are straying away from that and you see that in all media aspects is that people are becoming aware that the cis-het white man is no longer the only good selling point and that there are actually people out there who would pay good money for something else.
Yeah, I know the most classic sort of story of this is kind of the continual reworking of Lara Croft.  She still fits a lot of the stereotypes.  She’s white as well.  We don’t have many black leads in games, for example.
No.
But, yeah, she’s become notably more proactive and less of a passive sex object…
Yes.
…and object of observation.  You mentioned also the sort of – saying is it personal or is it sort of groups or things you’ve read, did you read about this as well in the games media at all?
I don’t read a lot of articles or things from game media specifically, but I am in a lot of communities where people share things, and so I don’t usually go looking for it myself, but if someone sends something to me which will evidently appeal to my interest then I’ll read it, yeah.
Okay, so it’s mostly your views on these topics has been driven by friends and sort of social networks…
Yeah.
…and occasionally informed by articles.  Where would those articles come from?  Are those gaming websites?  Are those academic places or—?
Both.
Okay, cool.  Good stuff.  So, you’re including these kind of topics in your game at the moment.  Have you had anybody play this game and have they had a response to these topics?
We’ve had a bit of a problem getting the game out there to have people play it, mostly because it has never really been play-ready, so…
Alright.  Okay, fair enough.
…we currently have a demo online and we’re trying to get people to play that and give feedback on that.
Cool.  Might get some soon.  Have you addressed these topics in previous games at all or—?
No, no.  I’ve never been in charge of a project before, so – well, last year, but that was – last year was about making something very feminine and artsy and this year was making something story-driven and more personal.
Okay.  So it has been a kind of a bit of a theme of trying to make something a bit, well, outside the cis white heterosexual guy?
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.  Have you ever been deliberately antisocial in your games?  So, at the moment you’re looking at kind of inclusion of non-male genders, minority representation in a few different groups.  Have you ever been deliberately antisocial, like going in the opposite direction?
What do you mean?  To do include the cis-het white male?
Or, well, actually to go even further, I suppose, sexist, racist, violence without any moral justification?
No.
No.  Just a question that we’re asking.
That’s actually a good one to try, because it’s good to sit on the other end of the spectrum, but haven’t, no.
Okay.  Would you ever?  If you were working in a team at a big company and they ask you to do that, would they let you?
It really depends on the context, because if you’re deliberately going for a character in a game who is deliberately very offensive to make a point, that’s something different than you’re making a game that is just super-offensive because everyone at that company is like, “Yeah, Nazis, yes,” and you’re just – then I would probably quite because, no.
Fair enough.  Okay.  Thank you.  So, we’ve talked a little bit about what you see as kind of some of the trends of the last ten years, so narrative, a little bit of diversity inclusion and sort of these are some of the aspects, and obviously the increasing power of the technology to render prettier and more beautiful things.
Yes.
More pretty things.  If we were to ask the same question of you in ten years’ time, what do you think you’d be looking back on and saying, “Oh, yes, those were the big things”?
So, basically what’s going to happen from now on, like big things?
Yeah, it could be the next 10, 20 years, what do you think is coming up as a big shift or—?
I think the gaming experience is going to shift.  Like we’re currently working with VR.  I think we’re going to take that so much further.  I’m not sure if that’s going to be in ten years’ time, but if you see how rapidly our technology is evolving at the moment, I think within 50 years we’ll be looking at some order online type of helmets and virtual reality shit that you’re lying on your bed and you’re locked into a game and you can walk around and stuff like that.  So, I think we’re heading for like VR plus, plus, plus.  Like that’s definitely something that’s the experience.
As far as content, I really hope this trend of more narrative, emotional games, like Life is Strange and Journey, which is basically just there to be super-pretty, I hope that trend continues.  I hope in ten years I can say like, “Yeah, I saw the start of that.”  That would be really cool.
Cool.  What do you think of things like augmented reality?
Currently still in diapers, that’s basically my opinion on it at the moment.  I mean we’re experimenting with it with our own game because someone suggested it and one of the programmers was like, “Hey, I’d like to put that on my straightjacket,” so we included it.  I think it’s fun.  I think it has a lot of potential, but, yeah, very much at the beginning stages yet.
How would you compare virtual reality to augmented reality in terms of how far it’s evolved?
Don’t think I can give you a good answer on that one.
Okay, fair enough.  We’ve talked a little bit about kind of an increasing number of things that you’re seeing happening towards gender minority representation.  When you talk about narrative and emotional stuff in games, is that also part of what you’re discussing there?
Yeah, definitely.
So you think that’s probably going to – do you think that’s going to increase or do you think it’s going to stop or do you think it’s going to roll back?  Where do you think we’ll be in ten years’ time?
I really hope it’s going to continue or it is going to increase, because if we’re going to roll back again, we might as well go back all the way to Middle Ages.  I’m really done with that shit.  It would be very nice if – you know, I actually had this conversation a while back with my brother, where I said it would be so nice if we start to be the generation where people start to ask someone for their name, like, “Hey, what’s your name?  What are your pronouns?”  Like that becomes a normal thing.  Like it’s baby steps, but those things can really make a difference and I hope gaming-wise we’ll also just keep heading forward and don’t let angry [chitos 0:27:16] in America hold us back.  That would be great.
I think that’s probably a very nice end point to finish off.  Angry [chitos 0:27:22] in America.  Awesome.  Thank you very much for the interview.
Alright, thank you.
Good.