KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)
Okay, the recorder is running; good.  Could you state your name and spell your surname for the recorder, please.
My name is [anon] 
Cool.  And just to confirm for the recording, you have signed the consent form, haven’t you?
I have signed the consent form. 
Awesome; thank you very much.  So what is it you do and what have you been doing in the past to do with games?
What is it that I do now?  So now I currently work at [ANON] in [ANON], I’m a design lecturer.  I teach level design and system design.  I’m also a year coordinator and variation coordinator. 
Cool, and what was your role in the past before you came here?
In the past?  I started off as an artist, a 3D modeller and animator and then I sort of moved into game design.  My original background was as a sort of designer.  My education is as a designer but as a 3D designer, so it’s sort of that kind of usability and sort of aesthetics.  So I moved into game design and project management.  And then I defocused on project management and focused on game design, doing level design, system design for about 15 years. 
Yeah.  And where were you working? 
My first job was at Bitmap Brothers, was in London and the second, it was at Guerrilla Games in Amsterdam.
Yeah.  Amsterdam, yeah.  Cool.  What sort of people make video games? (laughs) 
What sort of people make videos?  Well, I think it depends on the areas that they’re working in, whether they’re a programmer, an artist or a designer.  I suppose there’s also the project management.  But I think collectively they all want to create exciting experiences.  They want to create other worlds, they want to express themselves in ways that the construct of their normal daily lives don’t allow them to.  So I think people want to make games as a form of communication. 
Cool.  And who do you think makes up most of the audience?  Or who is in the audience for games? 
Again, it depends on the games. So there’s a large amount of audience of sort of the middle aged ladies who play certain types of sort of social gambling games for example, but also the kind of the AAA market is perceived as teenagers and – or, yeah.  Sort of children, teenagers and adults in their 20s and early 30s and I think for - the games for that age group are of interest because they’re attempting to discover about themselves.  And I think video games as a form of communication and a way of sort of socialising allows them to find sort of common interests in kind of peer groups. 
If you were to say kind of – well, if I was to say to you kind of what are the most important games in the world?  What criteria would you be using to judge? 
(laughs) The most important games in the world? 
Like are there specific genres that you think are more important than others at all?
It’s a good question.  There are – the most important games in the word.  I think the games – well, I think that there are different important games for different groups of people to be honest and I think it’s not a single thing.  It’s that a game can be very important in one territory to a particular demographic and that’s a constantly changing thing. 
Okay.  How do you think the video game industry is affecting kind of how people are spending their leisure time? 
So with the move from terrestrial television to the internet and video streaming, then I think a lot of people are spending leisure time not only playing video games but actually watching people playing video games, and there’s a big social network building up around people who are interested in watching other people play video games and talking about video games.  And the – you know, the kind of the programme of events that happens within those sort of entertainment sessions, in the same way that people would watch cartoons or, you know, their favourite TV series.  So I think that video games are moving from a solitary individual playing a game or, you know, kind of two people playing a game together to a huge social network of people that not only play but are talking about playing and watching other people play. 
So there’s kind of a culture developing around the games which is kind of bleeding into different other cultures as well? 
Yeah.  So, and for example yesterday then I was looking for additional functionality on my PlayStation 4 and there was Twitch.  So then I hadn’t signed up to Twitch before but then my little son wanted to add some additional functionality to Minecraft and so in order to do that, then he had to install Twitch on his machine so then I went down and saw the switch on – Twitch, sorry (laughs) on the PlayStation in order to kind of play, so started investigating that aspect of gaming, doing it through my game console. 
Yeah.  So there are things that were kind of the preserve of the PC owner, the kind of a desktop or laptop computer which are moving across to console as well? 
Yeah.  So for the lounge yeah for the living room. 
Yeah.  Okay, do you think the increasing number of players and the attention that games are getting are changing the way that people think about learning and education?
I think the more people play games, the more they’re used to using – well, the more people play games, the more they’re used to understanding the way that the software is constructed.  So it increases accessibility.  How it is easy to pick up something new and understand how to use it.  And then move on to enjoy it, so the accessibility has increased.  I think that from an educational point of view, then that means that the initial level of entry is lowered because everyone is used to using software and on consoles and on their phones.  But whether gaming is used to increase education then from my experience, I don’t think so but streaming video in order to watch tutorials has a bigger impact on education and people are watching games being streamed and also then watching tutorials.
You know, so in that respect but I don’t see a direct. (laughs) 
Okay.  So the way people learn about games is the same sort of way they’re learning about everything else in the world? 
Ah, do you mean from – ah, okay.  So you mean more the way the games are structured?  The framework of a game is then reflected in other frameworks around them?  Yeah.  That’s true.  So the tutorialisation of a game then – and the way that the communication is constructed, then that’s – you know, they’re the same as in many other things; you know, in the way that you would constantly – if you introduce a new policy then you have to constantly – you have to have a – you have to draw people’s attention to it.  Then you have to take them through it, then you have to reinforce it and until they understand it enough.  And that’s the same structure as you would use in a video game.  
Do you think that increasingly then, models that have been successful in video games might influence how people for example talk about policy and try to get that implemented?
I think with a video game you can set up a scenario and allow people to play through it in order for them to educate them about the issues and for them to perhaps understand it from multiple perspectives.  So, yes. 
Okay.  Are you familiar with the terms serious and applied games? 
Yes. 
What do you think of them? 
What do I think of serious and applied games? (laughs) Well, I don’t understand your question, what do I think of them?
(laughs) How would you characterise them; what do you – do you think they are highly useful, do you think they’re well-developed?  When you think of them what’s the first thing that comes into your head; what is your expectation of them? 
Well, a serious or applied game is a game that’s created for a – to answer a business question in order to facilitate business, so in order to communicate to a client or to communicate a kind of a brand idea, to – but I think it has – the problem it’s trying to solve is one that’s about commerce as opposed to entertainment gaming, which I think is about – more about society and social commerce.
Okay.  What comes to mind when I say the term gamification? 
Gamification? Taking an existing process that a company might use and looking at a – looking at it through the lens of gamification in order to improve its accessibility, to improve its kind of information retention; so that using gaming constructs in order to – yeah.  In order to improve the processes that they’re using.  
Do you have any experience of those being successful?
(laughs) It sounds like a leading question to me. (laughs) 
(Laughs) Yes, sorry.
How successful?  Well, I suppose – I mean my use of those sorts of things is from fitness apps.  I think from – was it Stravia?  And from sort of Couch to 5K, so yeah they’re all – so they’re about people setting goals.  It’s about tracking their personal data, sharing personal data; setting up challenges, building habits so – and I think within that context they work very well.  So I – yeah.  
Cool.  Moving along a bit to kind of how things are framed for kind of social change.  I’ve got a statement which is: games are powerful tools to change behaviours and attitudes for the better.  Do you agree with that statement? 
Read it again. 
Games are powerful tools to change behaviours and attitudes for the better. 
I think they’re powerful tools.  I don’t know if they change attitudes for the better.  I think that games are a reflection of people’s attitudes.  I think that you can sort of guide people in a certain direction in order to have a certain experience, but I don’t think just allowing people, you know, giving people a sound box in order to socialise in, then creates a kind of improved society.  I think that it reflects - the sort of things that people do within those environments reflects what – you know, reflects society.  So you’re still – it’s not that everyone becomes – that the person that they’ve fantasised they could be, the best person they could be, I think that quite quickly people reduce themselves to doing things that they can’t get away with (laughs) in the real world.
So perhaps it also brings out – I mean it’s a safe environment in order to explore all those terrible things (laughs) that you’re not allowed to do, and then in doing that realising that you don’t actually want to do it.  So then perhaps I think for a younger demographic, then it’s a good training tool for them to say, “Oh, okay.  That’s why we’re not supposed to do these things” because, you know, with all this anarchy and chaos then society doesn’t really work properly. 
Yeah.  Okay.  Just having a read through those.  Do you think that serious or applied games or gamification are better positioned to achieve positive outcomes than entertainment games? 
Well, they have different – they’re attempting to achieve different outcomes so it’s not that they’re better, it’s that they’re different. 
Yeah.  True. (laughs) Okay, let’s talk about how games work.  So just looking at kind of innovation and disruption and things like that.  What do you think are some of the key innovations in video games over the last say, 10, 15 years?
Networkability, social aspect. 
Okay. (laughs) So that’s the biggest thing for you? 
And mobility. 
Mobility?  Oh yes, okay.  So the physical movement of the devices and—
Yeah.  The fact that you can play the games anywhere, any time.  And they’re also now networked.  
Yeah.  Okay, do you think those have also been impactful for both – well, has an equally impactful, kind of the artistic and entertainment games and on serious and applied games or do you think that one side has been impacted by that change in mobility and networkability? 
I think entertainment games have changed – well, from my experience I would say that entertainment games have been impacted hugely by it.  But for serious games, yeah I don’t know.  I don’t – you know, it depends on the serious game.  It depends on the product I think.  But generally as a whole, then with competitive gaming and the whole social aspect of gaming, also for example in e-sports, then that’s huge and a very important part of kind of modern society for a younger demographic.  And I don’t see that same impact through serious games or applied games other than through fitness apps. 
Yeah.  Do you think that both kind of sort of – all of these different types of games are using the same kind of psychological mechanisms and the same design processes, or do you think serious and applied games – because as you say, they’ve kind of got a different goal – do you think they are using different systems to try and achieve those goals? 
No, I don’t think they use – they’re using the same systems but they put a different emphasis in different areas of those systems based on the outcomes they’re attempting to achieve.  
Okay, cool.  Thinking about kind of games development as a profession, what do you think are the main pressures and expectations on staff in games development?
Overall it’s whether they – an audience of the product that they’re making, is it – are they spending their time in a worthwhile manner that will at the end of it pay the bills and so they can make the next one; or is it a waste of time?  You know, is it going to be – is it finishing the first game and then building on it or do they have to reboot and start again because there’s no – you know, they have to reform in a new financial construct in order to make a game?
So there’s always – what else?  Issues, stress points for game developers.  Yeah.  So if the financial structure of a company is very precarious and they have to shut often, then staff have to move around a lot and be willing to do that, or find another profession.  So having – you know, I think it’s quite difficult to achieve sustainable employment.  I think where I’m very lucky in my experience; my experience is not typical, is that working for a company that – you know, the same company for 15 odd years that went from like 6 of us to 250 of us, that’s not a common story.  Many people move around every 1 to 3 years.
So financial stability I think is an important factor. 
The – you mentioned there that people were kind of trying to make sure they aren’t wasting their time and make sure the games kind of – that they’re contributing to it.  How do they go about deciding the direction that they’re going to go in when they start making a game?
I don’t think there’s even one (sneeze) there’s no one answer to that.  It depends who they are and what their experience is. 
How would they commonly go about that? (laughs) In your experience, when you started making a game what was the decision making process?
You would see who owned certain areas of the market, so if no one owns the area then you know that if you create a – you know, that if you create a product that can grab people’s attention then you can move into it.  So your competitors – you know, you’re not competing.  If you’re bringing out a first person shooter and at the same time you’re competing against the new Destiny 2, and they start advertising it eight months before the game comes out then it’s quite difficult for you to achieve visibility of your game.
So, because that market share is basically owned by Destiny; by Destiny 2 or by Bungie.  So if you’re starting to make games then, yeah.  Then you need to find a new market to move into; hence the explosion of people doing VR and previously the explosion of people doing mobile. 
Do you think that with these explosions, do you think that the – do you think it’s sustainable at the moment, the mobile market; the VR market and things like that?
Well, the mobile market, then most of the money, most of the finances, most of the user bases is kind of hoovered up by a few key players and so for new companies joining it then I think it’s difficult, impossible to get into.  Then VR, well then VR has not really kicked off.  It’s not consumer, so there was an article in GamesIndustry.Biz I was reading the other day, that was saying that many of the VR start-ups are all going into sort of hibernation mode for this year because there’s no – there’s lots of different technological choices but there’s no particular killer tech that everyone wants to buy and there are no killer apps that everyone wants to play.
So it’s I think always – the winners are more than likely to be the ones that can hang in for the longest. 
(laughs) Fair enough.  Moving onto the next one.  This looks at more kind of ethics and politics and things like that.  So while working on games, do you recall intentionally addressing issues such as gender, minority representation, political culture or other sort of serious or socially educational topics in your work? 
Yes, made a game called ShellShock – Nam, 67 I think. (laughs) Which was then based in Vietnam.  So then having to – as an English person working in the Netherlands, having to make a game based on Vietnam then was quite – with no one on the team being American or Vietnamese, was quite difficult.  And I think that we treated it more as a fun – well, I think we trivialised a whole bunch of aspects of the Vietnam War and I actually kind of did a lot of research for it, then you sort of – you realised that it was a very serious and horrific episode.  And that to kind of turn that into entertainment was actually really quite difficult.  And I think for the type of budget that we had didn’t then allow us to do that because we only realised, you know, kind of three quarters of the way through or two thirds of the way through that actually it – the subject needed to be approached in a much more sensitive manner, yeah.  
(laughs) How do you feel about your work on that game now? (laughs) Looking back. 
Well, I think that we, I think that one should perhaps stay clear of such – yeah.  Of doing a similar thing, unless actually you’ve got the time and resources that you can actually not trivialise it; you know, where you can have the fun free, carefree gaming aspect to it but that you can build additional layers into it that also then take on these kind of important issues that you’re kind of monetising by making this kind of – this game.
And I think Far Cry 5 for example is then kind of doing that, it’s sort of based in the American Civil War I think.  Was it sort of like a parallel universe- 
More sort of white supremacist, redneck Hillbilly kind of cult thing I think. 
Yeah.  So they’ve obviously had to – I’ve not seen it – well, it’s not out yet, is it? 
No, not out yet, no. 
So, but my assumption is that they’ve had to tread very, very carefully and they’ve had to think long and hard about the implications; you know, the way that they’re going to communicate these things and allow players to interact.  But my assumptions are that there will be kind of moral aspects to it that people will have to wrestle with.
Do you think that the – and that’s a fictional setting even though it is a location in the world.  Do you think there is more freedom for them than you’ve felt on ShellShock Nam? 
More freedom? 
And how do you think that the developers feel in terms of social responsibility, working on a game set in the States of America or perhaps in Vietnam? 
Well, if they’re - I don’t know if it’s maybe made in North America or Canada. 
I think it’s Canada but I’m not sure. 
So then – well, I suppose that they – I think that if it’s more of their culture, in their culture so they can – I think you have a more of a – kind of a personal voice about it.  My assumption is that it’s a massive development team.  And our team was only like 15 people so it was much, much smaller team so we didn’t really have the time and resources in order to make something of it. 
Yeah.  So there’s obviously some aspects of political culture and political history particularly.  Would you have felt differently do you think if it was a game set in a much more modern period?  So for example, Afghanistan more recently, within the last 15 years or the Iraq invasion in the 1990s?
I think it would have been different because there – for Vietnam there’s already a kind of post-Vietnam culture that’s built around all the films and the music.  There’s already a fantasy around it so if you create an entertaining product which doesn’t kind of tick all of those boxes which gives a different point of view or isn’t sensitive to it, then I think you get vilified for it.  But with Afghanistan or Iraq, then there’s – well, for Iraq there’s a number of films about it.  But generally the message is, you know, it’s a horrible dirty war.  You know, it’s a sort of horrific place.  So, and I think that that’s a message that you can get through in a video game.
So my – I’m not explaining that very well – is that I think those wars would be easier to turn into a video game because there’s less cultural stereotypes that have been established around them.  So, and people don’t really know much about it so you can develop a theatre of war and fight through it and I think that you can not really challenge any of the moral aspects of it because people don’t have those initial expectations. 
You’re talking about the Iraq war and Afghanistan here, yeah.  
Yeah.  But with Vietnam, then because there’s – because already people have gone so deeply and so kind of broadly about kind of the human aspects and the moral aspects of it, then they expect you to be sensitive to all those things. 
Okay.  So it’s easier to work in untrodden territory culturally and politically in some ways? 
Yes, because then you can start to write the rulebook about it. 
Okay.  Just quickly, like have you ever addressed things like gender or minority representation in games, consciously? 
Probably only poorly because in the Vietnam game, we had prostitutes and they – and a sort of a Madame.  So, yeah.  Probably not. (laughs) Not in a very good way. 
Okay.  The last sort of little branch here which is what future directions might games and gaming take; what are the possibilities and challenges and what are the tensions?  So where do you think games are going in the future.   If you looked at games in 10 or 15 years’ time, are there any big trends that we’d go, “Oh, yeah.  We should have seen that coming.” – In your opinion. (laughs) 
In my opinion?  Well, there’s the whole AR/VR so let’s hope that that goes somewhere interesting.  I think that as people have become much more used to the sort of interactivity and feedback from gaming, then they expect it in all of their electronic interactions.  So I think that it facilitates more, you know, not the – I don’t like the term the internet of things, but more of that within the home; like kind of the computerised home.  Even a gamification of (laughs) everyone’s daily activities.
But games – no, unless there are some great technological advances that are different from what we know now, then I think it will carry on the way it is growing with perhaps the whole e-sports or watching games, watching other people play games competitively.  I can see that that perhaps takes over from current sports, or that market segment grows even larger, but—
Do you think that serious and applied games and entertainment and art games are going to be – continue remaining quite so distinct from each other, or do you think there’s going to be a more of a bleed across between the two? 
Well, I think there’s already a huge bleed across between the two.  So, because with serious a lot of – well, serious games, they want to educate you; they want to form habits, they want you to remember things.  Maybe they want you to buy things.  And those are the same, you know, the same goals of the entertainment games.  There’s a commerce aspect to entertainment games as well. 
And what do entertainment games want you to learn? 
What do entertainment games want you to learn? 
You just said they both have those same goals, and learning was one of them.  So what do—
Well, entertainment games want you to learn the systems within the game I think in order for you to understand the construction of the world.  So it’s about learning how to play the game. 
You mentioned earlier that ShellShock Vietnam had – you would like that to have addressed the sensitivities of the topic better than it did.  So do you think that’s an aspect that people would learn from?  Looking at the kind of political and historical context of the game that they’re playing? 
Well, yeah; which was the same as one of your initial questions about do entertainment games allow for a learning environment?  So, yes. 
Yeah.  Cool, that’s a very good point to end it on. (laughs) Doug; thank you very much for talking to us. 
That was hard work. 
Yeah.  Thank you. (laughs)