KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

Right, that is recording.  Could you say your name and spell it for the recording please?
My name is [anon]
And just for the recording have you consented to being recorded here?
Yes. 
Excellent, thank you very much.  
Can you tell me what you do within Games World?
So I create and run live games, so those are generally either in the streets or in museums, parks, specialised venues but they are, sometimes a mix of technology and real world actors and it’s like just environments and sometimes there’s no technology and it’s just actors, environments and the actual players.  
Cool.  Who would you characterise as your players?
Is that our general demographic?
Sure. 
Our general demographic is between twenty-four and forty, it’s like mid-twenties to forties is generally what we get, and sometimes it goes a little bit young, but generally mid-twenties. 
What sort of locations do you do these?  Are these major institutions you’ve involved with or-?
Both.  So one of the games runs in the Victoria and Albert Museum once a week, others are, we run them in a different zone of London every single month, so that’ll be like the Chancery Lane Zone or the Clapham Zone, and so those are just kind of scavenger hunts in the streets, so we’re not really partnering with anyone.  
We’ve got a couple of major organisation ones we’re working with now, which is new, which we’re working with Endemol Shine on bringing The Hunted IP into a live action game and we’re working with Ink Factory to bring John McCorry’s novels into a series of live games, and a couple of other big ones that are still in, not even early development yet. 
Can you tell me a little bit about your background, how did you get to be doing what you do now?
So I am a trained dancer/choreographer and so, and I was always very interested in methods of scoring and how you structure work and in my choreography making sure that every single movement that add, that I don’t add a split leap cause it looks cool, that it makes for whatever that character’s doing or feeling at that moment.  When I started my choreography degree, my master in fine art, I began to realise that I could use games as a score.  
I’ve kind of taken a bit of diversion in studying games and I haven’t really been making as much dance now, but it’s kind of from that how I started to get into actually creating live games. 
Is that a typical route from theatre into making games?  Or dance into making games?
I would guess no, mostly because the way I decided how to do it was a little silly and strange.  It was kind of a, my project is due next week, or my project close is due next week I’m going to have to do this all on my own because my supervisor was ill.  I was like, okay, I could definitely, I’m interested in these scoring practices, I’m interested in learning more about kind of theatre, processes for interactive and immersive theatre because I don’t know much about it and I’m interested in LARPing and I’m interested in playing lots of games.  
So kind of made a big mind map, I was like, well I don’t what the centre thing is, I don’t know if the centre thing exists, that kind of connects all of these pieces, but I would like to find out if it does. 
How would you describe that centrepiece of being different, for example, from LARPing?
It’s not, it really isn’t.  It’s one of those things where like, yes interactive and immersive theatre are different, and no interactive from the immersive theatre aren’t different (laughs).  Yes, live games is not the same as LARPing but live games as the same as LARPing.  
It’s just kind of a mind-set, its intention, which is the same, but most types aren’t.  That when I go LARPing my intention is to become someone else and to play by these rules and go, yes I like this ruleset, I’m going to play magic in this way, I’m going to do this kind of research.  So I guess it’s the same as any kind of role-playing game that you play with table top, except you’re not playing at a table.  
It’s just that LARPing, the word scares people.  So a lot of my job is convincing people it’s not exactly what it is (laughter).  Because there’s just bad connotations on LARP, we are weird people, weird people do this in basements somewhere and it’s, well because it has all of that really bad press.  Dungeons and Dragons had all that really bad press, and I guess video games have had all that really bad press; that only weird people do it, and they’ll all become violent and hoodlums and (laughs). 
Just for the sake of the record, how accurate would you say these reputations are?
(Laughter) I’m not weird, well I’m slightly weird.  But I mean it’s, they are inaccurate in the way that everyone, like almost everyone I’ve ever LARPed with are really beautiful brilliant people, that are super-fun to play with, they’re super-fun to go and have these experiences with.  But they are somewhat accurate in the way of like most of them may not have as good of social skills in the real world, so they go to these LARPing systems that have defined behavioural rules and structures that are easy to kind of understand, you go, ah.  
So where can you go, well I, as [anon], I’m somewhat cartoonish and overly excited by everything and that’s how I am in the world, if that, that can be hard for someone to kind of like – because those are unconscious decisions, if you have to kind of make those conscious behavioural decisions, it’s easier to go, I am Rothgar, and Rothgar reacts with rage to these things, but loves kittens.
Good character. 
Thanks.  I might create Rothgar now.  Rage at most things, but loves kittens (laughs).  I know, I’m sure this is super-useful. 
It’s great research.  You say there that it allows people to sort of step outside themselves, do you think that’s beneficial to them when they go back to their everyday life?
I noticed actually, well I don’t know like for how many people, but I know that, like for example, my fiancé, who is generally a quite confident person, has been playing the Admiral.  There’s only one Admiral in Empire and he randomly was able to get that role, and so all of a sudden he has all this kind of important responsibility and it kind of upped his, just general confidence.  And so being able to, having to take on this extra role he wasn’t expecting to have, helped him then be able to, in kind of normal life, use those skills.  Because everything you do, like I talk about ballet so much because those are the skills I’ve learnt, and I’ve learned them from living those, through living my life. 
If you go to a LARP and you live someone else’s life for a bit, you still get all those skills.  That’s sounds really gamified, but it’s true.  
Do you think the same sort of thing happens with video games?  Digital games?
I mean I learned the stock market principles through Neopets, if that counts.  I don’t think, you probably don’t get the same number of, like quick learning on, especially behavioural stuff, like how to interact with the world. 
Soft skills. 
Yeah, those, I guess the way I would relate it, you know like sometimes your XP bonus in something is super-high, depending on what the situation is; if you’re interacting with real people but you have kind of, handicap’s the wrong word, but that’s what they use in like sports.  You have kind of a head start by you already, you have literally a piece of paper that tells you how to interact with people.  You have a bonus to learning those skills.  
I don’t know that video games really has the same amount.  I know like for people like my cousin Mark, who has autism, and that’s not so much video games, but just video, that he learnt to communicate with the world by watching Blue’s Clues.  So now that he talks, he talks in the exact same cadence and the exact same information, so I know like, that’s like the biggest analogy that I have, but I know that playing video games had a similar effect.  It’s not as obvious as, he sounds like Steve, every time he talks (laughter). 
Fair enough, it definitely changed something then. 
Yes.  
Are you aware of the terms ‘applied and serious games’?
Oh the terms ‘applied’ and ‘serious games’?
Yeah, ‘applied games’ and ‘serious games’?
Yes, well I’m more familiar with applied theatre and applied arts than I am applied games.  
Okay, so yeah, applied games are roughly categorised as stuff which is for positive behavioural change, things that you might already know but you need more encouragement to do.  And serious games are much more, tend to be education, new things that you need to learn to do.  So educational games, in a general term, training and educational games. 
Well I played a lot of education – because I was home-schooled since I was six or seven, and so I was like basically one of the first people, like the first generation, to actually learn all of my stuff online.  So I learned, and it was all, some of it was a little bit gamified, so it was all kind of that kind of stuff.   It was just like the Zoon Beanies and things like that, that I played a lot of.  
I learned a lot of my, I guess a lot of my education was through, they weren’t really good games, but they were games.  They were all on computers.
So you’ve got a reasonable amount of experience with stuff which is considered educational software, that’s most of your education. 
Yeah, it was almost all of it. 
I assume when you, when you obviously went off to the MFA that obviously was not home-schooled anymore. 
Yeah, I stopped being home-schooled when I went to university.  So I was home-schooled from the age of six or seven, to eighteen. 
Okay.  When you met other people of a similar educational attainment level, how did it compare, the experience?
So interesting.  I can talk about me for a very long time (laughs) but I was never very good with like waiting, I’m kind of an impatient person and so that’s why like, because I had trouble with traditional schooling since I was three.  It just did not go very well for me, because basically three year old me thought everyone was an idiot (laughs).  
So I got to university and was like, okay, this is my first day of classes, I hadn’t been to class since I was like five or six.  So I don’t remember how this works, so I read everything I was supposed to read, I had copious notes, went into class and the teacher, and I understand why, but I disagree with it, the teacher acted like, had like the kind of belief that no one had done any of the work.  So I was like, so why did I do any of the work.  I was not very happy. 
But I didn’t go to a particularly good academic school, because I went to one for dance.  I went to a very good dance school, the academic sucked.  
So what I found is because I did all of my learning by myself, it was, this computer programme, a book, and me, and there was technically a teacher; they weren’t very, while they were all very good teachers, no one knew how this system worked, because no one had ever done this before, because again I was one of the first.  So I didn’t really use them ever.  
Yeah, I’m familiar with that problem, yeah I had that myself.  Yeah. 
Yeah they just did the stuff – so like the, it was a pretty big shift to go from distance-learning where you teach yourself, which works for many things, doesn’t work for other things.  It was really tough for math and science.  
Like I can remember the day that I realised that calculus is the language of physics.  Because there was no there to tell me, duh, calculus is the language of physics.  I had a physics book and a calculus book, they didn’t talk to each other. 
So whilst serious and applied games have been a factor within it, there’s also stuff that’s missed out from those games.
Yeah.   
Okay.  Cool, interesting.  
So we’ve got a statement here which is, ‘games are powerful tools to change attitudes and behaviours for the better’, do you think that’s true?
Yeah.  I do.  I’ve seen it happen.  I mean, again LARPing you do get a lot of people, and I know that that’s not a serious or an applied game, but it is, as far as a tool for teaching people – actually I have a better one.  I did the friendship classes. 
What class?
I did friendship classes.  
Okay, yeah.  
When I was – because I was not good at making friends.  Apparently childhood me did not like people very well, very much. 
Sensible, yeah (laughter). 
So I did friendship classes, and again they weren’t, these were not computer games, these were like live simulations, which I still think are very close to LARPing.  But they were live simulations of how to, like how to talk someone.  Like when you meet someone ask them these, ask them three questions, find a common ground and how to introduce someone to another person, and you’d practice these things and you did well, or you did poorly, and you got – it wasn’t like class, it was more like games.  
But I know the training that I got there really super-helped me (laughs).  Because one of the things I, looking at myself, one of the things I am best at is talking to people and making those connections and going, oh you need to talk to this person, and being excited about what people are excited about.  But if I didn’t know how to find out what people were excited about, or how to do any of that, like that would be a serious problem and I know lots of adults who could’ve really benefitted from that, I guess, class, or training, or games, or whatever you want to classify that was.  So I know from first-hand experience that applied games, while live, not video, can definitely change attitudes and behaviours. 
Cool, also.  What do you think makes games compelling compared to other media?  Why have games, why have interactive theatre and not theatre?
Because people like themselves (laughs). 
Good answer.  
I mean because it’s a lot, I know this is something that, like for me and my fiancé, so I am, because I have so many years of ballet experience where you put your physical self in the position of someone else.  You’re able to go, oh how are they feeling and then physically feel it, because the thousandth person in the back row has to believe that you feel sad right now, and not that you feel sad, but Nikea feel sad because of other things that have happened in this ballet.  
So I am very, I’m easily able to go to that place and make another story, not necessarily about me, but exist with me in it, even if it’s not interactive.  Whereas my fiancé does not have this skill or curse, because I can’t watch horror movies, because I feel it.  So he, in order to feel the same level of kind of empathy of engagement of a thing it has to, he has to be the Admiral.  
So he has to literally be in that position himself, rather than mirroring your own kind of thing of a, like I feel that person because I can see that person.  The embodied knowledge sort of thing going on there. 
I mean like for me it’s to the extreme of if someone that I’m watching tilt their head or has a certain posture I will begin to mirror that because my brain is kind of taking their information and imprinting it on myself.  
This is completely off the topic of the research. 
Oh so sorry. 
No, no, the bit, the question I’m about to ask you is off the topic.  If you were home-schooled how did you get into dance?  What with that normally being a group activity.  
So this is an interesting story.  I failed three year old pre-school.  
Good job. 
I know, I know.  
How?
Because I was serious adorable and knew it, I was headstrong, wilful and wanted my way always.  I haven’t changed too much from that, but then I had no ability to tolerate anything.  So when, if I didn’t like what the teacher wanted us to do, or if I wasn’t leading the thing, or I thought it was stupid, I would just sit under a table and not be part of it; and I thought the other three year olds were stupid. 
So when the five year olds came back from kindergarten, I would like interact with them and all of a sudden I would be a part of things, and so the pre-school people took my parents aside at the end of the year and said, [anon] needs to repeat three year old pre-school, somewhere else (laughter).
So my parents spent the rest of the summer going, okay we need to get her in some kind of class where she can learn to people and to follow directions and that worked to varying degrees of it, so like we did swimming lessons, my mom turned her back for a moment and came and turned around and I had convinced the teacher that everyone needed to pick leaves out of the pool instead of learning to swim.  I was really, really manipulative.  
Good job. 
Yeah, I know, I’m so proud of little [anon].  Little [anon]’s fantastic.  
So then eventually my parents tried lots of different things, I eventually went to ballet and I didn’t learn to follow directions but I did go, um, I like your directions and I will follow them for now.
Ah.
And so that’s kind of how I got into ballet, and because ballet you have, you don’t really have to talk to people very much and you just, and I really enjoyed the order and the discipline. 
It’s very structured. 
It is super-structured, and yeah, so it spoke to me.
So obviously there is a link there between you being very structured in some ways, physically, also the performance, like to the detail of where the finger posture is and stuff like that.  And then obviously you now have a role which is about generating rule sets. 
Yeah. 
So do you think that’s – how naturally do you feel that follows together?
So naturally (laughter).  Well I mean there’s so many skills that I learnt in ballet that have been so useful, because not just creating a rule set, it’s learning how to communicate that rule set to a group of crew, and a group of players, and convincing them that they’re going to do that. 
Yeah, because obviously live role play it doesn’t have the same constraints that the digital world does. 
Yeah, it’s one of those things where you can’t actually force someone to do a thing, and you can’t actually force someone to not do a thing.  Because you just don’t have like the, because if you’ve – like Stanley Parable, you can’t physically can’t open that door. 
Yeah. 
And as much as I think it’d be really kind of fun to create the Stanley Parable in real life, they could try and open that door.  There’s─
There’s always a way.
There’s always a way. 
Yeah, and they will find it. 
Yeah.  One person will, most people won’t but one person will. 
Yeah, I’ve heard of people in escape rooms just breaking absolutely everything in the place, can’t open the box, I can smash the box though. 
Yeah.  Do you not understand how many hours I took painting that lock, that kind of thing (laughs). 
What do you think the main pressures are on game developers?  That can be interactive, theatre developed, game developers, live action role playing developers, or digital developers, what do you think, what are the pressures in your workplace?
For us, well there’s like the very real pressures like money, because we are not funded by anything, we’re funded only by our tickets sales, and being funded only by tickets is not an easy place to be.  Because many, like if we were a theatre company you’d be ticket sales for part of the way, and funding for part of the way, and we’re just ticket sales.  So we have a very real pressure to make sure that we have something that is mass market enough, where we can appeal to enough people and actually stay alive. 
Have you ever worked with academics to find any measurements of the – any sort of study that might guide you in making that judgement of what is going to be mass market enough?  Kind of the probable success in the future, or any sort of─
To be perfectly honest, I would love to do that, my employer would never do that.  Because my employer is very much a, let’s try repeated experiments really fast with not a lot of thinking into them and just see what works.  He’s a, throw spaghetti at the wall kind of guy; to good things and bad things.
Which means that instead of doing kind of a dedicated approach to, what are we actually trying to do, we don’t do that, we just kind of do randomness, which is not necessarily my favourite way to work, but I do have a visa, so that is good. 
That helps. 
It does. 
It’s nice to be able to stay in a place with a job. 
It is, yeah (laughs).
But it would be, I think it would be really helpful, especially for a, an industry kind of like live games, which is in kind of a weird place.  Like I was talking, well I think there’s a lot of support that could be done for live games that hasn’t happened, that doesn’t exist yet because it’s still so new.  Like one of my agendas, even though I don’t work in the escape room industry, is to get – because I know Ukie does a lot with kind of lobbying and talking to politicians and stuff - is to convince them that they need to look into - like because escape room’s always closed, not because they don’t – if they’re bad, because they don’t get tickets, they don’t sell anything.  
But if they’re good, it’s because they have - they lose the ability to stay in that place, because of leases, always.  So that seems like a problem that could be fixed.  
Yes, it’s a currently massive growth market escape rooms, quite possibly unsustainably growth.  I think there’s a bubble that could burst there, but.
It’s already – what we’re finding with the live games, which is why we’re starting to kind of partner with these big IPs, going, well hopefully they will have a big enough reach that we’ll be able to, kind of, still succeed.  But because our kind of like, people who buy tickets, for some reason we’re not selling right now, and that’s not good. 
So that bubble may be breaking, but there are other things that we can do with it.  Like, because we had the games in the Victoria and Albert Museum, and frustratingly they’re not very educational.  Because that requires getting enough funds that we don’t have to just make a game in two days, because live games, if you have enough time, you can make a game in a day and start selling it.  For good things and bad things, but what’s frustrating is then you’ve got, because you’ve got the Victoria and Albert Museum and they don’t really want to partner so much, they want to go like, yes you can use the space but we don’t have time to deal with you.  So it’s like, uh, we could make something so cool if we could just like, have like that kind of connection. 
Yeah, a little bit more access, a little bit more collaboration. 
Yeah.  Because that’s something like I think live games could very easily kind of fit into, that kind of, I guess there’s applied and serious games.  I think there’s, I know there’s a market for it, but there’s kind of need, now that I’ve been talking about this for the last however long, for those kind of like, while I did friendship classes when I was younger, what I’ve been looking for now is some kind of like media training.  But something that’s very much in the thing of the game, have like different levels and like one level’s going to be like, working on kind of television skills, how many times did you look at the camera when you weren’t supposed to.  That kind of that. 
But because there’s all those pressures of like time and money and will you still be a business, that you can’t, those are things that you just, they just don’t exist right now. 
I can tell you about it later, but that’s actually how we’ve raised our education in games development, very, very practical, but with zero financial – but anyway.  
Last couple of topics, one of them is a biggish one, the other one’s very tiny. 
This one is about ethics and kind of social context and stuff like that.  So the question is, have you deliberately addressed gender minority representation, political culture or other serious or socially educational topics in your work?
Not very much.  We make our games generally gender neutral, mostly for a practical thing, because then we have more actors we can hire.  So our protagonists can be male or, not protagonists, because that’s generally the players, but like the main leading people can be male or female and we don’t really have, this is what we expect that person to look like.  So it’s like hiring-wise and kind of practicality-wise, yes it’s all kind of gender neutral. 
Theming-wise, we have stayed very far away from controversial topics, because of the aforementioned mass market, needing to sell tickets to stay alive, which is somewhat unfortunate.  It’s something that would be more interesting.  
We’ve had, I don’t know if this is relevant, something that we have to deal with quite regularly is community though.  Because we go and we run games on streets in different areas near peoples’ homes and so we got kind of slammed once for what was, I don’t think it was poverty tourism type thing, but it was similar, it was kind of like, people who are generally, with disposable incomes running around areas that might be poor.  Not because that was the intent, because we generally avoid any kind of private areas or council estates or anything like that, but because that’s what it looked like. 
So we’ve very kind of conscious to do things like, well I guess we’ve got the Pride game coming up, that’s all about LGBT history in Soho, and that one’s completely free.  Anyone who donates, that goes to Pride.  
So we have like small things like that, but that will be – those will be one-offs, they’re not really, none of our like themed games have any narrative that touches on any of that. 
So that’s the pressure for commercialisation basically, pushing it that way.
Yeah. 
Interesting.  
So like I guess if someone on the team has like a pet thing that they want to do that’s not going to take a lot of time, money or things like that, because those are the pressures.  So like, yes we can do this LGBT thing for Pride, we’ll partner with them.  We’ll do it in Soho.  We will, we’ll make a loss on it, because we have to still, we pay all of our crew, which not everyone does.  So we will make a little bit of a loss on it, but it’s a nice thing to do.  
It’s interesting, because obviously there’s an avoidance in some aspects, but within a practical aspect of it, it’s gender neutral because that’s more convenient. 
It is. 
So you’ve actually got some very positive and progressive workplace policies, just because that’s the necessary ones to make it work. 
Yeah.  And you’ll have a different cast every single time, so.
Yeah, that’s going to make you have to be quite adaptive isn’t it?
Yeah.  You have to go like, what, you can’t do Lord or Lady Mayhew, you have to do Doctor, you have to do like that kind of thing.  We have to look at any kind of title that is gender neutral and all pronouns have to be gender neutral, because you don’t know who’s going to be in that role that day, and you don’t want to recode every time because that’s obnoxious. 
Yes.  
We don’t – you haven’t seen our code base?
I have not seen your code base. 
So there’s no buttons to switch who’s going to be that thing.  
A programmer could put that in at the beginning if they thought about it. 
There’s no way, because most of it’s like, we use Google spreadsheets for all of our clue sets.
Right, yeah that would not work nicely with scripting for that kind of thing. 
No, because we have to change those really quickly, we have to be able to – and we change them in the middle of a game all the time.  
Yeah, so that’d be complicated, just stick with gender neutral. 
Yeah, we’ll stick with gender neutral.
That makes much more sense.  
We also just prefer to keep it gender neutral anyway, it’s part kind of like practicality, part – we don’t want to do any more coding and part, the preference is to keep it gender neutral just because that’s just what we do. 
Yeah, it’s nice.  Non-binary stuff is nice to acknowledge that it exists even also sometimes.  
Yeah. 
If I were to be talking to you in ten years’ time and go, wow, when we look back at the last ten years that big thing that happened, that was a thing, what sort of things do you think we’d be looking back on?  What’s going to be the big stuff coming up do you think?  Either specifically within your field, within games, within shifting boundaries, anything.
Wow, so not necessarily what I will be doing?
Not necessarily what you’d be doing, but just more in the territory of games or interactive theatre, or whatever. 
I don’t really think like that, as aforementioned and like my talk earlier today.  I’ve done a lot of ballet history and since ballet history’s been going on for so long, that you just kind of go, oh yeah, the John Cage/Cunningham era that was a thing that happened, yes John Cage did 444, and it was four minutes and forty-four seconds of silence.  You’ll guess that was a thing, but it’s like, yeah it was a thing (laughs).  Ballet and opera, there’s a thing. 
I guess it’s kind of like on the level of, because I do just think it’s hilarious that ballet initially was a way to kind of avoid wars happening by going, look at how much money I have to spend on needing a god in this opera, do you want me to put this into military, no.  I just kind of go, that’s hysterical.  Because the amount of posturing, and oh my god, it’s amazing.   
I don’t know, so much of the stuff that I’m seeing happening in VR right now is stuff that I read about and have witnessed happen in the seventies in fine arts.  So I’m guessing that will get into the nineties in fine arts and VR next (laughs).  
How would you characterise the nineties (laughs)?
I’m really bad at dates, but it’s just kind of like, so you had like Keely [0:36:16] who works, who still works, but he did like all kinds of interactive art where you go and you feel different floors, and you smell different smells and it’s very much, a new world envelopes you in this, and it has all these sensory things in it, but it relates to the social, political, cultural thing of his era, like of his time and place, and bringing that to other places.  
So you kind of go, hmm, I can see that happening very easily, that’s happening in some places in VR right now.  So now they’re doing like the in-room VR, where you have like the wind from a window, yes, and this sounds extremely familiar.  
Yes.  So perhaps more personal things?
I mean I’m super-interested to see like, like I would be really, I’m really interested to see like, because I did all the home-schooling and I did all the friendship classes, I did all of it, what the next level of that’s going to be.  So it’s kind of like, what’s happening, what people are trying to do with that now.  
Because the most I know of it now, because I haven’t really looked at it too much, is that it’s now actually expensive.  Because when I was doing it, it was basically free, because they just needed people to do it (laughs).  
So now that they know that the people who did it, didn’t turn out terribly, I think (laughs).  Just kind of see like, where that ends up going, I find, is going to be super-interesting.  I think it’s really good, it’s also kind of interesting because it’s Burning Man cycles coming back, and the Burning Man cycle’s coming, it’s mainstream and interactive theatre, it’s close, it’s close to those kind of things.  
And like festival, it’s close to like the festival art thing that is – I mean it’s getting bigger again and more mainstream.  Like we had a YouTube or an Empire last time, and all of a sudden we had an influx of people who went, oh my god, LARP may not be the weirdest thing in the world.  
Yeah, that confluence of kind of media coverage, an immediacy of, somebody can come up, film for twenty minutes and then, well three minutes of upload later it’s on YouTube and then suddenly you’ve got a hundred extra ticket sales. 
Yeah, or, and then a whole bunch of people to kind of indoctrinate into LARP to kind of go, this is what to expect, bring waterproof socks, you will want waterproof socks (laughs). 
Good plan, yeah.  So something you mentioned there is kind of the, the monetisation of serious games, so educational games. 
Yeah. 
So that, as you say in the past that’s been largely free, but that’s now becoming more expensive.  
I know it’s different for my siblings.  I know, well I know that as – my siblings didn’t do, because I did my, this is going to sound like the most pretentious thing ever, but it’s because only these universities were doing it, I did like my, all of my early education was through Stanford’s programmes, because they were studying it.  But once they had their system down, when my siblings who are seven years younger came along to do the same level it was actually, they were charging lots of money for it.  
So we could say there’s kind of a ring-fencing of the top─
Well even like, because I did, for high school I did a mix of – and I would still say they’re gamified, because the way you have your quizzes and stuff are still very gamified.  But I did public schooling, but public online schooling and so, which was available to more people but I guess it’s still like any education, the quality of it was much less and because I was kind of grandfathered in to working with North Western and Duke and Stanford, I could still do whatever courses I felt was more necessary, like science and math.  
Anything where you have to learn a concept, that while it’s really gratifying to figure out the concept for yourself, it was a lot harder to do any of that work through the public schooling ones, because they just didn’t have the knowledge of how to teach that.  
That it makes it a lot harder for someone who may not have as much money.  Because I had a private scholarship that paid for everything, so I was extremely lucky, so they paid for all the expensive courses by the time they got expensive.  But it meant that someone who has access to a computer but not access to money, would not have the ability to do those serious games.  
Yeah, interesting.  Cool, let’s wrap it up there. 
Okay. 
Thank you very much for the interview, that’s really interesting, thank you. 
I hope it was helpful.
I think so, it was good, thank you. 
Okay, cool.