KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

Okay, can you hear me?
Yes, I can hear you.
Oh, finally (laughs).  Okay, here we are.  So first of all, thank you a lot for the time that you are dedicating to this interview.
Yeah, the connection is—
Is quite bad, yeah.  You can hear me well, because I hear you quite well?
Yeah, I can hear you, but it just stops and when it goes on it's like ur-ur-ur.
I see.
But I think I can understand.
(Laughs) I will try to disable the video.  It might help.
Oh yeah, it does.
Okay.  I will share a window.  You should be able to see it even if I don't share my video, right?
Oh yeah.
Okay.  So I will explain to you how this interview works.  As I said, we're interested in your experience as a gamer and what you think the influence of games is on society.  Along the way, we will use these slides I'm sharing to help us guide our conversation on several topics we're interested in.
Okay.
So for example, I will share with you some key words.  You are free to use them or not use them.  You are not required to touch on all of them, but you can use them as cues to shape your thoughts about something.  Okay?
Okay.
And we will start from your personal experience and then we will try to move on to a more abstract level, and if you don't have any questions—  Do you have any questions?
No, not yet.
Okay.  So we can begin, and we will begin by asking you about your experience with games.  So, what do you play, for how long do you play, etcetera?
For how long, like from what age?
Yeah.
Yeah, okay, because I started playing, I guess, when I was about eleven years old, because I was always bored because they were doing renovations in a house.  I started with the Game Boy, Pokémon Blue, but my real actual gaming career actually started when I was sixteen because I got a PlayStation 3 then, and that's my main platform.  Yeah well, now it's a PlayStation 4, of course.  So yeah, that would be what I'm doing the most.
I play every week, especially at night, after dinner when I'm done with my work.  I think I play a diverse collection of games actually.  My favourite series of games are Assassin's Creed, Kingdom Hearts, and Uncharted, so I play them a lot.
I don't know the last one, but I know the others.
Uncharted?  It's a shame because it's a really good game.
(Laughs) 
I mainly play the single player campaigns because I don't like multiplayer.  It's too competitive, I guess.  My PlayStation name is [anonymised], so it's pretty clear that I'm a girl when I'm playing online.  Sometimes when I head shot another guy, then I hear them cursing through my headphones because they know they've been defeated by a girl.
(Laughs) 
So I think that's funny, but I don't really like the experience of multiplayer gaming a lot.  I'm also the only one in my family who really games, so it's not like they can—  Or even among my friends I'm the only one, so they don't come over to play games.  So it's mostly just me playing games.
Okay.  Do you play on a mobile too, or just a PlayStation?
Yeah, just a PlayStation.
Okay.  And if you don't mind me asking – you can choose not to answer me – but how much do you spend on games?
How much money do I spend?  Well, it's actually difficult now because I'm a member of the PlayStation Network.  I have that subscription, so for sixty euros a year you get two free games a month.  So I don't spend a lot of money anymore, unless there's another game that I really want and I can order it, like from the main series I just mentioned.  Then I dare to give, well, sixty euros for a new game.  But that doesn't happen a lot.
Okay.  The next thing I want to ask you, which is already a little more difficult question, is what effect do you think games have on you and on other people?  So you've been playing for a long time, so do you think games have changed you, in a way?
Hmm, well, it highly depends, of course, on what game you're playing.  I think first person shooters, I never thought of them having an effect on me.  They can be kind of aggressive, but I can really – I don't know – separate that from real life.  So I've never noticed an effect from them.  I noticed maybe the biggest change from strategy games because they really make you think and I become sharper when playing them and I learn their system.  I already have [Portal] and it's like you learn a new way of thinking, thinking with [portals].  
So I think that's the main effect I have from games.  Otherwise, it's just like watching a movie.  I mean, I can be really emotionally moved by games, but when I stop playing them, it's not like they have a real lasting effect on me.
Okay.  One thing I would be interested in is you said when you play strategy games you feel sharper.
Yes.
Do you think this is also an ability you can use outside the gaming context, or just for that particular context?
No, I definitely think that I—  Yeah, I learn some things from games, like the other ways of thinking, and also – what do you call it? – spatial thinking.  I got better at that by playing games, definitely.  
Yeah, I think games make you do things that aren't necessarily fun in real life but, because there's a goal in the game, in the original story, you kind of want to do them, and so it trains abilities, yeah, definitely.  It's hard to find an example, that's why I'm thinking, but I really believe it has that affect on me.
Hm-hm, okay.  Do you think, personally, that games can be addictive?
Yeah, I definitely think they can be, but I've never noticed that with the PlayStation games I play.  I did have that with some of the mobile games because they're really made to make you addicted, I think.  They have the system of experience points and, yeah (laughs) it's really ridiculous because, in my eyes, they aren't even real games.  But still, they make you come back for more experience or more money.  So yeah, they definitely have that addicted effect.
Hm-hm, okay.  You already touched on the competitive side of online gaming.  Did you also ever play collaborative online games?
Yeah.  I mean, in Uncharted, for example, there's also a multiplayer mode in which you have to collaborate and play against the computer.  I tend to get stressed by missions like that because I don't want to be bad.  I mean, the word 'new' is used a lot in multiplayer gaming and I really hate that, so I tend to actually not play a lot of collaborative games.
Okay.  So you mostly play single player also because when you're in a collaborative situation you still feel pressure, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.  The third thing I wanted to ask is if you know or can think of some practical applications of video games.  So, using games not only for entertainment but also for other purposes.
Well I mean, there's a lot of thought about gamification, of course, like planning of your next weeks and things you have to do when you make a game out of it, if you are able to do them, but I'm not sure that's a real game.  That's just trying to make something a game.  But I am thinking about augmented reality games, like, of course, Pokémon Go, also Run, Zombies Run, and I think they are really effective in actually activating people to do some physical activities.
So yeah, I think that that's the main thing that games can actually—  Of course, I was also talking about the puzzle games that can actually make you learn stuff without you knowing it.  That was actually really big when I was little.  When I was like, I don't know, seven/eight years old, I discovered a computer and my dad gave me a lot of games, and I still, today, know a lot of things I learnt from those games, just about history and about geography.  And at the time, I didn't know I was learning because, otherwise, I wouldn't have played them, probably.
(Laughs) 
So yeah, they definitely work.
Did you play them at school or were the games played on your own?
No, at home.
Okay.  Do you think they could be used in schools?
Definitely, yeah.  I know a few of my teachers actually tried to play some educational games in school, but they were the wrong games.  They were games you knew were made to educate you and they didn't feel immersive at all.  The games I got from my father when I was little, they looked colourful.  They were just games and you played through them, but they had these hidden things in them that suddenly started to teach you about art and history, and I just missed that.  
So yeah, I think that the wrong thing with those games in school was that they were made for education, and not for fun.  So they really missed that fun aspect.
Okay.  So you mean those kinds of games should be designed with entertainment as a first goal, right?
Yeah, I think so, because if the entertainment isn't there, children know that they are learning and then they just stop playing.  Well, that was my experience at least.
Hm-hm, okay.  Coming back on gamification, which you said you are familiar with, did you have any personal experience with gamification?  Have you ever used gamified systems?
Not a lot of them, actually.  I know of this app where you can actually put in what you have to do in the next week, I think, and it gives you experience points if you actually succeed in doing them, but it was too much of a hassle.  It just (laughs)—  Yeah, I didn't use it all.  I thought it was a great idea, but it didn't work for me.
Okay.  Moving on to a workforce topic, do you see any potential ethical issues in games, both in their development and in the message they're conveying?
Yeah, I mean, people always talk about violence in games, but like I said, I can really separate them from real life.  So I think that, in games, of course you can be very violent in first person shooters, but that doesn't really say anything about your real behaviour.
My main problem with games is probably sexism.  When I'm playing them, I realise that a lot of games are not made for girls and they can really take you out of it sometimes.  I was talking about Uncharted, and I really love that series, but you play as the male, Drake, in those games.  And I remember at one point it was a really immersive point in the story because you've just had this huge fight and then you have to climb up this ladder, and Drake's girlfriend climbs up the ladder first and the camera kind of pans into her and you see her butt.
(Laughs) 
And Drake, the player I'm supposed to be, comments, "Oh, it's such a shame you have to sit on that."  And I didn't like that at all because that's not something I would say.  So I was taking completely out of the character.  I wasn't Drake anymore at that point.  It's like, why is he saying that?
(Laughs) 
So yeah, those are offensive [0:15:21] things that aren't really meant for women, I think.  So yeah, there are a lot of issues like that.
I'd like to explore this topic a little more because, actually, we mostly have interviewed males, so we don't (laughs)—
Yeah, yeah.
I would like to take this opportunity to know a little bit more about what features of a game makes you say this is designed for a male and not for a female.
Well, there's of course—
You said about this bad service but is there any other [0:16:09]?
Well, just the narrative is often also focused on male characters.  They are the heroes.  The females are put in the games to be saved.  And, of course, there are a lot of games that try to change that and have these strong female protagonists, but then you start playing the game and you again realise that you are looking at bouncing boobies and her butt the entire time.  The female characters in games, they just scream when they jump.  No male character does that.
(Laughs) 
It's like strange differences.  Males have this full-on armour and females have this bikini armour and stuff like that.  But actually, it's not only the games; it's also the multiplayer community.  Like I said, I was stupid enough to have my PSN name as [anonymised], so everyone knows I'm a girl, and every time I do play multiplayer – like I said, I don't do that a lot, but every time I do – I get an instant friend request with some guy asking me, "Are you a gamer girl?"  And that's so unnecessary (laughs).  It's like, yeah, you know that because I play the game.  It's so weird that they want to contact you.
I know one time I got a message saying, "I bet you are really sexy."  I was like, what!
(Laughs) 
What's that about?  Really strange.
Hm-hm, okay.  I don't know, but do you frequent forums, communities of gamers?  Do you feel there is the same dynamic there?
I don't frequent a lot of them.  It's mostly when I'm really into a game that I look it up on the internet and see what other people say about it.  I mean, mostly I see people not having the same issues with the game that I have because I think the forums – I don't know because they are usernames and I don't know their gender – but I think most of the people on the forums are also male.
What I see most on the internet when I look up games is people playing it much more competitively than I am, talking about strategies to become better, and that's not what I do at all.  I frequent the forums of Pokémon Go now and I see people constantly talking about the [0:19:01] system and fighting with Pokémon, while I'm just interested in filling out my Pokédex.  It's really strange for me that the focus is entirely different, but Pokémon does have all the female players, so that's… well, that's a good thing.
Were there any games that gave you the opposite impression?  I mean, okay, this is a game that is well designed for women.
I'm now playing Mass Effect Andromeda and I'm kind of pleased with it.  Until now, I haven't played a lot of it, but you can design your own female character, and she's a real character.  I mean, you have those games where you have these clear male protagonists and then a rip-off female.  Like Zelda is doing that now, and now there's suddenly Linkle.  Even her name is derived from the male characters.  
So, in Mass Effect, you really have these female protagonists, and she's made like that.  And I've heard that a lot of male gamers actually also play as a female, of course, but I feel like you can really customise her the way you want to.  So you're not pushed into these sexist schemes or something like that.  So I feel like, up till now, it's doing a good job.
Okay.  Still talking about the portrayal of diversity of people, do you also think that games are designed for white people, to be blunt (laughs)?  Do you think there is also a problem in the portrayal of race, as well as gender?
Yeah, I definitely think so.  It's hard for me to tell because it's just—  Well, it's horrible to say, but I think I never really think about that when playing.  But if you reflect on it, yes, definitely.
Mass Effect also does a good job with that because you can actually choose everything, your skin colour, your race, whatever, at the beginning of the game.  So you can really customise your character, and there are also black characters in the game.  But often some games have this black character, you know, this token black character because they didn't have any and, oh damn, we have to put one in.  So yeah, I think a lot of games are actually, yeah, quite white minded.
Okay.  And moving on to a completely different topic, what do you think about those kinds of games that—  How can I say?  Let's start over.  In traditional games, you buy the game and then you have the game and you don't spend a single coin on it anymore.  But more and more recently, there have been games based on a subscription system or games that are free and then you buy inside them, objects or advantages.  What do you think about that?  Have you ever played these kinds of games?
Yeah.  I mean, yeah, I've played mobile games and they all have that.  It's kind of pay-to-win.  I make it kind of an honourable thing to not give any money to those games and still be good at them.  What I'm most frustrated about is PlayStation give you a game and then ask you to pay for the [0:22:54], even if you've paid sixty euros for the game.  I think that's really horrible and, I mean, it can maybe even stop me from buying a game if I know that I have to pay a lot of extra money to get the entire game.
So yeah, I tend to only give money for games and not for anything extra in them because I really think that's something—  Yeah, it's getting bigger and bigger and I really don't like that evolution in this.
Hm-hm.  Connected to this, what do you think about pirating video games?
Yeah, to be honest, I'd probably do it myself if I was a computer gamer, but I'm a PlayStation player, so I can't.  It's pretty horrible, and I know it is, but I can say I'd probably do it myself, so—
(Laughs) Okay.
But I don't do it because I'm a PlayStation gamer.
I think it's possible.  It's probably more difficult, but—
Yeah, but then you have to use an emulator or something, and I don't do that because that's not the same experience.
Hmm, okay.  Moving on to the more abstract question, I would say, of the interview, which is do you believe that games have an influence on society?  Do you see an influence on society by games?  And if so, which kind of influence?
Hmm, I think that's a hard one.  I immediately actually think, again, of Pokémon Go because that had a huge impact, I think, on society.  There were parks where no one ever came in Belgium, and suddenly they were full of people, people who didn't even know each other, talking to each other and asking which Pokémon they had spotted and stuff like that.  So I thought that was wonderful.  But once the hype was over, that was over as well.  So it's not really a lasting effect.  Another funny thing I thought was that Pokémon Go measures in kilometres and not in feet or whatever, so a lot of American people actually got to know kilometres.
(Laughs) Okay.
And I thought that was a wonderful impact of Pokémon Go (laughs).  
But yeah, I mean, really lasting effects, well, I don't know.  Well, maybe multiplayer gaming can have a more lasting effect.  But on society as a whole?  I don't know.  I mean, I'm a single player and it's just me sitting on a couch playing games, so it's hard to say that that has an impact.  
But I suppose there are games, like Journey, that after I played that game, I had such a positive outlook on life because it's maybe the most wonderful collaborative game.  As I said, I don't play collaborative games because they put pressure on me.  Journey didn't do that at all.  It was like I played that game and, after finishing it, I felt faith in humanity was restored.  But again, does it have an effect on society?  How many people have played that game and does it actually impact them in their real life?  I don't know.  It's hard to say.
Hmm, hm-hm.  One thing I would like to ask you is do you think games can be art or artful?
Yeah.  Yeah, they can definitely be artful.  I think so.  But they are so different from the art we know, I think, that it's a hard—  Because a lot of games, their art is not in the specific actions of a player, or even the things you see on screen, but it's about the whole of the experience.  And that's difficult to explain to people.  It's like a story and the way you are immersed in it; it's an experience.  I think people find it hard to accept that art is like this experience [package 0:27:47].  So, yeah.
Of course, there are a lot of art forms, like pixel art, that also derived from games, and they are accepted more, I think.  Maybe because it's just something visual, like objects you can look at, so people say, "Oh yeah, that's art."  But the games, yeah, it's more like – I don't know what you call it – experience art [0:28:13].  But yeah, it's the whole package of the game that you have to see, and a lot of people don't.
Hm-hm.  Were there any games that gave you this impression that you've played?
Well, yeah, Journey.  Like I was saying, the whole experience of sharing those travels with another player, you don't even know who he is and you don't have a way of communicating, except through these symbols and making sounds.  It's just the whole dynamic of that game, and it's beautifully made, but I wouldn't say that a screenshot from the game is art.  It's just really, yeah, the entire time playing that counts as art for me.
Okay.  Another thing I wanted to ask, you talked before about augmented reality, and I would also say virtual reality is growing as a new technology in games.  How do you think it is affecting games and will affect the games?  Do you think it will change the way games are experienced?
Yeah, definitely.  I mean, I've only tried virtual reality in Geneva back then, and it was such a different experience than anything I'd had before because it kind of deceives all your senses.  You really have a feeling that you're in this room and that you're somewhere where you're not.  
If the quality of games can be like they are now on the screen but in virtual reality, I think it's going to be ridiculous how that it's going to be an artful experience.  I mean, you can really play someone in another world and you can even use it to—  I mean, we saw in Geneva also – this is really all I know about – [0:30:21] and, yeah, it's going to be a revolution, I think, not only in gaming but also how it's going to be used in every aspect of human life if [0:30:37].
Okay.  The—
I think that for most people, if you haven't tried virtual reality, I think you don't get that.  But if you really stand there and see it for yourself, it's like, wow.
(Laughs) I remember it from Geneva too.  I was (laughs) very impressed.
Yeah, yeah.
Another thing I want to touch on about this topic is what do you think about regulating the use of games?  By 'regulating', I mean both from governments – so for example, saying that this game cannot be sold to people under-eighteen – and by parents regulating the use of games for their children.
Yeah, I think it's kind of important.  I know when I was sixteen I'd already played some games that were, I think, over-eighteen rated, because my parents never really looked at that, and I think I was shocked by some of the things, especially sexual things in games.  I think it's important to let people know that there are age restrictions on games, and, from the parenting perspective, I think it's important not only to follow those government rules but also to make sure that little children don't play games too often.  Playing outside is an important aspect of being a little kid and you have to make sure your kid isn't watching a screen the entire time.  That's not only bad for their eyes, but also for their development, I think.  So yeah, I think there is some responsibility there.
Hm-hm, okay.  This is actually the last question of the interview, which is what kind of advice would you give to different people who are involved with games in one way or another?  What kind of advice would you give to make the situation better or better apply video games?
Yeah, [I see the word 0:33:05] educators and I think it's important that games are, like I said, fun and entertainment games.  So if you want to teach something to a gamer, don't make that the first goal of the game because people and children will realise.  So always have a good concept, a fictional world, a story, or whatever, to embed the educational aspect of the game.  I think that's really important.  The same thing in schools; if you want to teach children through games, make them fun.
Well, to developers, of course, try to focus on the female perspective also and maybe—  I don't know how it actually is in the development world.  Is there a much larger group of male developers there also?  I guess so.
I think so.  Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.  So try to have more female developers.  I'm sure that's going to help.  
Yeah, we've talked about parents, so, yeah.
What is the word 'institutions' there?
Yeah, I mean, if you think the government should do something, you know, a regulation by law, I'd say.
I don't know a lot about that, but isn't that already quite on point with the age restriction system and stuff like that?  Because I don't really know what they can do more.
Hm-hm, okay.  As far as I know, that's the only restriction they put.  So there is no restriction, for example, on content.  I mean, you could have a game on any kind of content and the worst that you could get is that people under-eighteen, I think, could play it.  But there have been some controversial games in terms of content.
Yeah.
I think, especially about violent content, there have been some controversial games.  But you said before that you think that you yourself, and people in general, are able to differentiate between game and reality.
Yeah.  Yeah, that's true.  I was talking about shooters back then, but I'm thinking now (laughs) that I don't think I could ever play or even see someone play a rape game or something.  I don't see how that can have any good effect right now.  So yeah, I guess there are some restrictions on content in my head (laughs).
I'm also very bad with violence in games because I get nauseous quite fast.  I played God of War and there's this one point where – I don't know – you have to rip out eyes and stuff like that.  It's very hard for me to play that, especially as God of War has this tendency to change to first-person when you have to do the most violent things.  I really had a hard time doing those things.  I didn't like it all.  I know a lot of people actually buy the game for that, so it's hard to say they have to change the content because, I mean, it sells, apparently, but I do have some trouble with that.
Okay.  Is there anything you want to add that maybe you thought about and didn't know when to say it, or something we didn't touch on?
I don't know.  I don't think I have.  I mean, I have a lot to say about video games, but I just can't think of something that should be helpful right now.  
Maybe there are a lot of games, and because we talked about the ethical aspect of games, there are a lot of games that have this moral system incorporated in them.  I think that they're beginning to get better at it, but in the past it was always this really clear choice between good and bad, and without a lot of freedom.  A lot of times there were only two choices.  So it's strange that a lot of people [0:38:23] that moral system, whereas it's really just the game making you choose things that don't even matter for the story a lot of the time, or to develop the character.  It's hard to call that a moral system.
So maybe I think that if games were to be educational, because they can be, I think, on the moral part, then they have to be able to give you more freedom and give choices that actually make sense.  For example, your character must always be—  I mean, it must also be a possibility to do nothing at all, for example.  And I think, again, Mass Effect is on the right track for that.
So yeah, I feel, up to now, games can't really be said to have a moral system.  It's too simple for that.  Yeah, make the moral choices actually count and make sense, and then maybe it will be truly moral.
I actually think this is becoming a selling point of some games (laughs).
Yeah.  Yeah, sure.
That they are difficult moral choices.
This is really weird (laughs).  I mean, a lot of games are always centred on that.  I mean, I'm thinking about Life is Strange, which is a horrible game because it makes you choose things and then immediately you see some of the consequences of your actions.  It then asks, like, "Is that really what you want to do?"  (Laughs)  So I'm just constantly rewinding in that game to see what my other actions would be, but then there are long-term consequences of your actions that you can't know yet.  So I think that game is also really on the right track by just showing you it's not that simple.  So, yeah.
Yeah.  I actually played that game fairly recently and I remember that the game was – I don't know – there was a lot of talk about its portrayal of young women.  I think it's considerate and pretty good in that regard.
Yeah.  Yeah, that's true.  Yeah, I was surprised that the protagonist is really just a girl and nothing more.  It's just a girl, not sexualised or anything.  I played three episodes of it, I think, so yeah, I think they're doing a good job.  Also, she's studying art or something.  It's really cool that they represent normal student life.  Not normal at all, of course.
Yeah, apart from the super-powers (laughs).
Yeah (laughs).  So yeah, it's still just a girl living her life and then this thing happens and you have to deal with that.  Yeah, I think they did a really good job because, before Life is Strange, I know the game Gone Home achieved a lot of grace, and I tried to play that game and I really liked the idea, but it wasn't fun for me.  
I mean, there was this story and you played it and it was really deep and emotional and everything, but it wasn't fun to play that game.  You were just walking around and, okay, discovering stuff, but it didn't keep me entertained enough to actually—  But I mean, I'm not a fan of walking simulators, so yeah.
Okay.  Anything else?
Not that I can think of right now, no.
Okay.  Then I will finish the interview and thank you a lot for your time.
No problem.  Oh yeah, I am wondering when do you get results or something from the research, and are they made public?
The transcription of the interview will be public and it will be anonymised, so there won't be your PlayStation name on it (laughs).
(Laughs) 
But yeah, the transcription will be made public.  I don't really expect a lot of people to dig that deep (laughs).
Yeah, okay.
If you're interested, I will send you our output as soon as we finish analysing the interviews.
Yeah, that would be great.
And if you have any questions about that, just ask, of course.
Okay.  Okay.
Thank you very much.
No problem.
Bye.
Bye.