KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

How are you?
I'm good.  How are you?
Good, thanks.  It's nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you, too.  It's my pleasure.
Listen, thanks very, very much for agreeing to do the interview.  It's really helpful for us.
Yeah, I'm ready for it.
Good, good.  So just first of all, before we start, just to let you know I'm already audio recording the call.  Is that okay by you?
Okay, hm-hm.
Yeah?
Yeah, that's absolutely perfect.
That's okay.  Can you hear me okay?
Yeah, it's all fine.  But actually, in between there was a lag in your voice, so—
Okay.  Well—
In case it happens, I'll just let you know.
Yeah, yeah, just tell me if there's anything.  Any problems you have, just tell me to stop and repeat something, and I'll do the same for you.
(Phone ringing)
Just like now; do you want to answer the phone, or is that not—?
No, actually, that's an office.
Okay (laughs).  No problems.
Sorry about that.
No, no problem, don't worry.  So, perhaps before we actually start the interview, I'll just explain a few things to you.  I guess you saw the invitation and you saw something about the project.  
Yes.
So we're interviewing different people that are different stakeholders in the gaming world, the gaming community.  So we've got people who are players, we've got researchers, we've got game developers, policymakers, and so forth, and we're interviewing each of these different groups, people from these different groups, to get an idea of their sort of approach to games, their attitudes, their ideas, their vision of games, specifically their own sphere or personal realm of activity and also in society in general.  Okay?
All right.  Okay, hm-hm.
So we're doing the interviews, then these will be transcribed and analysed, and then we'll be publishing a report.  I'll tell you a little bit more about that perhaps at the end of the interview.
All right.  Okay, hm-hm.
So how we'll work it is this, is that in the project there have been some general themes that have come up as part of the earlier work we've done, so I'm going to ask you some questions that are sort of around those themes.  Okay?
Hm-hm.  Yeah, okay.
Now, to do that, to help me with that, each time I'm going to put up a slide, okay, and you'll see the theme, and then we'll talk a bit about it.  And then when we've talked a bit about that, I'm going to show you a second slide which will have some key words on it.  
Now, these are key words related to that theme that have come up in the project.  So we'll look at those together and you can see if we've already discussed them, if there are others there that we haven't discussed, or if you want to add something on the basis of these key words.  Okay?
Okay, sure.
So we'll do that.  Anyway, I'll tell you each time that I put up a new slide for a new thing and, yeah, as far as the interview goes, just totally relaxed.  It's not a sort of journalistic interview, so you can take as much time as you like to think about what you want to say.  Okay?
Okay.  All right, sure.
You can change your mind, you can ask me questions, ask for an explanation.  If you want, you can also decide you don't want to answer a question, or if you don't want to talk about something, that's fine as well.  And when we've finished, at the end of the interview you'll also have a little bit of time to comment about what we've said or also about the interview itself, if you like.  Okay?
Okay.  Hm-hm, sure.
So, basically that's it.  So I'll just put up the screen share now, so you should hopefully be able to see the slide.  Can you see it now?  Hang on a sec, it might be coming through now.
Yeah, I can see it now: You and Games.
Yeah, okay.  Okay, so we can start now.  So yes, I just want to know a little bit about you and games.  So perhaps if you could begin by introducing yourself – so, saying who you are, how old you are, where you're from, what you do, and so forth – and then tell us a little bit about your experience with digital games.  We're thinking more in terms of digital games for these interviews.  Okay?
Okay.  Perfect.  So I'm [anonymised].  I'm from India and I'm twenty-seven years old.  Right now, I'm a PhD researcher in the University of Genoa.  So my research involves exploitation of [0:04:59] to enhance green driving behaviours.  So we try to bring out green driving behaviour through games and things like that, but predominately it's to promote gaming in the [automotive sector 0:05:16].  So that was the main concept.  
We try to teach some sort of green and safe driving methodologies, and to expand it a little bit.  So this was the main theme and, yeah, we have been through some initial tests and things like that to acquire some data to analyse how users can get ready to use games in the automotive sector.  So that was the main idea and this [0:05:46].
Personally, my exposure towards games is, some three or four years ago, I was a gamer.  I used to game frequently.  I followed some action games, such as [0:06:00], Call of Duty, and things like that.  But later, what happened was I had to change my system, so then I hadn't got the proper chance to play games as I used to play on a Windows PC.  So that's why, now, I'm not a frequent PC gamer, but instead I used to check out some mobile games.  So yeah, that is how—  But personally, I'm more towards action games.
Action games, that's your area.
Yeah, yeah.
Your genre of game play.
Yeah, I [0:06:36] strategy or something, but I would prefer an action game with open [0:06:44].
Action games.
Like where you are allowed to do anything and it doesn't have some strict boundaries which you have to follow.  You'll have a mission, but then you're on your own and it's absolutely open which you can explore [0:06:56] and also move forward to complete the mission, these games just interest me.
Okay.  So it's this quality of openness and freedom and agency that attracts you in these games?
Exactly, yeah.
Hm-hm, I see.  You were saying you have transited a bit from desktop PC games to more mobile games.  Have you found that that sort of freedom and agency in mobile games as well?
Actually not.  Maybe it's because I'm not preferring such kinds of games.  So for example, Age of Empires, those things are mobile, and even though they promote some sort of freedom, I haven't used such games.  But maybe I will have used some [0:07:51] 2048 some game like Angry Birds.  So, very simple games just for time passing and not completely into gaming.
So for example, when I used to play on my PC, I used to spend hours, say, some four hours, five hours, even more.  But mobile games are for time passing, maybe minutes, say ten minutes or twenty minutes I would play a game.  But never once did I feel like I had to progress with this game.  Somewhere I have to spend so that's why I used this game.  
But in the case of the PC, I had the mentality that now I have to progress, so I'd be more preoccupied and more excited to know what's going to happen next.  So that curiosity and that element of surprise, I don't get when I play using a mobile.
Okay.  So do you think it's fair to say there's more immersion in that game experience in…
Exactly, in a PC.
…in desktop PC games, then?
Yeah, that's correct.
Okay, I see.  Okay, good.  Well, let's now have a look at the second slide for You and Games, some of the key words that came up.  So you've mentioned some of the experience and the games and the platforms, and you also mentioned you used to play something like, did you say, four hours a day, something like that when you were a gamer?
Yeah, four hours, yeah.
And now, not so much at all?
Exactly.
Hm-hm, I see.  What about the money aspect?
Money in the sense of how much I would be willing to pay for a game?
Well, if you were (laughs) willing to pay.  Some people aren't.
I would prefer to pay something under [0:09:35] for a game, say a game like Far Cry or something, but most preferably I would [0:09:41].  But if it is a kind of game that is more interesting, with all the graphical element which gives me more opportunity to explore the game scene and things like that, then I would be more happy to offer a hundred dollars.  However, I feel a hundred dollars is something, the max which I can afford.
Okay, okay.  So you're prepared to put in the investment if you think that it has the depth of experience?
Exactly, yeah.
No, that's interesting.  There's one thing here, the game types you mentioned, also other players.  What about contact with other players?  Is that something that's in your gaming experience?
Actually, I have an experience of playing with—  Yeah, so I would prefer more to be an individual perspective so only I should be in the game scene and I should face some challenges and all.  Maybe collaborative gaming is a good approach, but I haven't given it a try so I don't have a proper viewpoint about it.  But I have heard from some of my friends who are frequently involved in this collaborative gaming where they have other people to contribute in the scene, but I haven't been into that.  But yeah, if I had given a chance for that, then I would prefer it.
Hmm, I see.  So have you met people that have played the same PC games that you have?  Is that something that's happened?
Uh-huh.
Hm-hm.  Does that happen more offline than online?
Yeah, exactly.  So I would prefer to take more offline games and, yeah, even with respect to online, I haven't played many online games.  But yeah, mostly offline games with specific tasks.  Because maybe the problem would have been, with online games, they require more of this internet connection and your speed should be more, whereas when I used to play, I hadn't got the proper connection and internet facility.  So maybe that could have been one reason that could have allowed me to expand myself in collaborative gaming.  I'm talking, like, four years ago.
Okay.  Okay, I see.
But whereas now we have good technology, so we can get anything and we can—  So yeah, that could be one possible reason.  And then [0:12:08] when I play a single player game and it was interesting to explore, later in the game I could share my experiences with people, so that was a different fun, I would say.
Right.  Okay, hm-hm.  Okay, good.  Right, I think we've more or less covered all of those areas in You and Games, so I think it's a good point now to move on to the next theme.  It's a related theme, if I move on with the slide, which is Games and the Individual.  So in this case we're thinking about the way that perhaps games might influence people in different ways and the way you think they may have influenced you, or you've seen them influence other people or heard of them influencing other people.
Okay.  Hm-hm, sure.  In that regard, what exactly influence me is the fantasy, which I cannot seem to get in the real world.  So for example, in games, I can use whatever weapons I want and I can explore them, but in reality, I can see movies, I can see somewhere.  So I put myself into a world of fantasy, which I don't get elsewhere, and that's what I feel influences me to go ahead with games.  What we see in a movie, we can actually go and feel for ourselves, like maybe for the time in which we are involved in a game, so that's probably one aspect.
Secondly, with respect to others, when they try to share their experience, like how they play and how they went along with the game scenes, that [influences me to say 0:13:48], okay, why don't I try that game and why don't I give a play for it?  So this is how it happens, this is how it influences me.  Or even with my [0:14:00] I used to interact, when they used to share their experience about game, so yeah, that has an element of [0:14:11], I would say.
Right, because I guess you've heard that some people think that this very strong sense of engaging people and involving them in a fantasy world, on some people, can even have an excessive affect where they become almost too immersed in this fantasy world.
Yeah (laughs) that is—
I guess you've heard people mention that.  Have they mentioned that to you?
Yeah, exactly, because one of my colleagues is a gamer and at times he used to play, I think, Age of Empires, and he used to share his experience of the games he used to have.  So he'd say, for example, I have to organise my army, I have to organise certain things, and actually what made him go through all those things.  It's like he feels that he's actually in the scene and he's controlling all those things.  It acts as a sort of interest and then you forget what's around you and you go on with the game scene.  So yeah, this is one experience I've heard from one of my colleagues.
Hm-hm, because some people think that you can even become addicted to that sort of immersive experience.
Exactly, and that happened with me also.  Somewhere [based together 0:15:28] I was into a game completely and I [0:15:31] to complete a game.  So I was too much into it and as they said earlier, it was more immersive for me and I was like okay, what's going to be the end, what's going to be the climax, how is it going to be?  So [0:15:43] taking me, so a lot of questions that were – it’s around me sort of.
Hm-hm, right.  Do you think you've ever had the feeling of being so strongly engaged in games over a period that this has helped you to develop in some way as a person?
Actually, in a person, I don't see.  Maybe the action games which I play would have improved my responsive skills, but something like, making more better responsive time.  So that could have improved, but apart from that, I don't think I have improved some skills out of it.  Maybe just because the game…
(Connection break from 0:16:32 to 0:16:37)
Sorry, [anonymised].  Sorry.
…maybe I could have improved something.
Sorry, [anonymised], we had a long dropout there.  Sorry.  Can I just get you to repeat what you said in the last bit?  The line dropped out.
Actually, I was saying it's because of the [0:16:58].  For example, for me, I like action dramas, so maybe because of that I haven't explored it much.  So if I could have, I would have preferred some other…
(Connection break from 0:17:06 to 0:17:19)
So for me it's like [0:17:23].  So it's kind of the [0:17:25] I might have got, but not personally developed some skills.
Okay.  We talked about people playing games for a long time.  What about things like physical activity in games?
Physical?  Yeah, because if you are more of a PC game and then you’ll not have a kind of physical activity, I would say, but I feel I'd have given some sort of [0:17:56] or something where you can play a bit.  Kinect, for example.  Kinect or something.
Kinect.  Yeah, Kinect.  Yeah, hm-hm.
Yeah, Kinect and you interface a boxing game, then at least you can almost have a practise, so then that puts more…immersive.  So yeah, in PC games, I feel you don't have physical activity.  So where you are sitting down in a place for hours and you're more focusing towards the screen, you don't have the opportunity to have a physical activity.
Sure.
But where it's in other forms of game medium, such as Kinect or [0:18:30], for example, the tennis…
Yeah, with the things, yeah.
…those things would promote physical activity.  Whereas a PC game or a mobile game, I feel they don't promote physical activity and you tend to be seated and be much focused on the screen.
Right, okay.  Well let's now move on and see the next slide which has got those key words associated to games in the individual.  So we've talked about immersion and engagement and how you become very… and the possibilities of addiction.  You also mentioned some cognitive apps response times and things [0:19:08] development.
Correct.  Yeah, that is correct, hm-hm.
I don't know if you're problem solving.  Is that something that you've felt has developed through game play at all?
Actually, there was a game we played [0:19:21] which I used to play on my iPad.  It's sort of a puzzle.  For example, there'll be some things that’ll be hidden in a room, so you'll have to go and search for those things.  You have to explore the room in order to find—  So it finally connects so you take one you resolve two, you take two you resolve three because it's a sort of incremental process.
Incremental, hm-hm.
So I was more addicted to towards it and, yeah…
(Connection break from 0:19:46 to 0:19:52)
I was not more into it, but I cannot deny the fact that I was too addicted towards it.  That is also true because [0:20:00] I was playing it for some days, and then later I had to leave it.
Okay.  We're still getting a few problems with dropouts.  I was going to suggest you turn off your video.  I'll have to leave mine on for the slides.
Okay.
Perhaps if you turn off your video, we might avoid some of those dropouts.  Let's check.
Okay, I'll just go for it.
Just go onto audio and we'll see if that improves.
Yeah.  Is it okay?
Yeah, yeah, that's fine.
Okay.
Sorry I can't see you, but (laughs) I can hear you loud and clear, which is the important thing.  Okay, we were mentioning physical activity.
Okay.  I suppose you only need the voice, right?
Yeah, yeah, we just need the audio, so that's okay.  We didn't mention… well, collaboration, you said you don't normally play collaborative games and things online.
Yeah.
What about competition?
Ah, so yeah, competitive games I have played.  For example, there was a game which involved archery.  So, there, you have to compete with more players.  So that one I played for maybe a week or so.  That's again a mobile game and not a PC game.  So that was more addictive and you compete with more people from various places.  So that was fun.  That was definitely fun and, yeah, I enjoyed it for a while.  But later, I was unable to sustain myself in that.
Sure, okay.  Okay, I think we've covered that theme pretty well now, so we can perhaps move on to the next one, which is, in a certain sense, your area of professional activity.  So that's the application of games applied to things other than entertainment.  Perhaps if we can stick with you as a player in this case, with your player hat on rather than as your researcher hat.
Okay (laughs).
What is your feeling or your experience of games applied to things other than entertainment?
For example, I see that as a good improvement in a way because, actually, games go more within entertainment.  So it's like when we play games, entertainment goes actually more, so they don't go for other sectors.  But when we try to exploit them to others, because it's a different approach in the first place, I see there's a different approach.  Definitely games have an ability to immerse people, so, compared to other mediums, they can actually talk with the player and they can bring the player into the context.
So what I feel when we try to take them to other domains, we have more privilege and we have more opportunity to convey information to players through games, just because they have the ability to immerse people.  So we can just try to convey that it can be used for entertainment and information sharing, for example, learning languages or trying to build new skills.  So we can use games in such aspects and I see that's a sort of implement, and also, yeah, it's a good tool if you use it in this aspect rather than entertainment.
However, we cannot deny the fact of entertainment.  That's what makes it more immersive, so it goes hand in hand.  We just cannot detach it completely.  So, yeah.
Sure.  Hm-hm, I see.  What about gamification?
Gamification?
Hm-hm.
I would say how exactly [0:23:44] strategy.  So, gamification sits well with strategy.  So, how we include points and how we make players progress with that, it goes more with the strategy.  So it's like I feel your strategy should be strong in order for gamification to be more powerful.
Right.  And have you had experience in a sort of gamification environment in some respect, as a player I mean, outside of—?
As a player, I have played some games for exploring some environment where you try to collect some news with which you move from one room to another room and you try to search for things where you find some news and all, but this was part of some experiment I tried.  
Yeah, directly I have an experience, but there was one application, which is called Duolingo, where I felt gamification was there.  It was this language application where it promotes people to learn languages.  So there, I felt where you see a graph that builds upon, which adds the points for the correct answers.  Yeah, I felt that was a good strategy, and yeah, I see it as a game and it had good gamification elements, and that's why it became more popular, I think.
Right.  So you think language learning is one of those areas that the gamification could be effective for?
Could be of interest, yeah.
Right, okay.  Okay, let's—
And also—
Yeah, go on.
Yeah, sorry.  And also, for example, if you're trying to give some safety training or some sort of training or knowledge that you want to introduce to people, you can do it through gamification.  We can add some elements so they can form a solid and robust base with which players can understand and [cope 0:25:32] with the instructions rather than just giving them a printed sheet of the instructions.  It has two forms, so, ideally, the gamification will [be] more effective.
So you see the effectiveness as being like in the sense of the activity of being engaged in an activity?
Yeah, exactly.  You experience that activity and you try to get something out of it, and that's when you learn.  So I feel it's more effective learning.
Okay, good.  Okay, well let's have a look now at those key words related to applications of games that have come up in the project.  You've talked about serious games of learning and gamification.  [They're other school 0:26:20] as part of learning as well.  Did you ever have any experience of game-based learning at school?
No, I haven't experienced such games in school, but I wish (laughs).
Right (laughs).  What about sport and rehabilitation, things like that?
Yes, sports I have been into.  So, sports like basketball and sometimes cricket.  So I have been into some sports and have tried some outdoor games, and also some indoor games we used to play, like chess, backgammon.
Uh-huh.  Any digital ones in that sense, digital sports?
Digital sports, as in in my school?
Hm-hm.
No, I haven't tried in my school.
Okay.  Also earning with games is mentioned here.  Have you had any experience of that?
No, earning with games I haven't been into.  Maybe as an aspect of play.  You're asking as in an aspect of playing?
Sometimes you get professional competitive players in these sports and things.
Ah, okay.  No, I haven't experienced earning with games.
Okay.  Right, okay.  Good.  So that, I think, has probably covered quite well this particular theme, so we can now move on to the next one, which is to do with ethical issues.  In your experience, have you had any experiences or occasions when you think ethical questions have arisen in games or game playing?
Mostly when we played these action games we used to get a prompt, like how this is meant—  It's related to age also, I feel, so you need to be over eighteen in order to progress with these games.  But perhaps I haven't faced some ethical issues with them, only this.  I would feel like most of the games, especially as my genre of games is action, this is the only thing I would face.  But yeah, apart from that—
Right, I understand.  So on those age restrictions, why do you think those age restrictions were applied to those particular—?
It's because of the brutality involved in the game.  So for example, you have to accomplish something, you have to kill some targets and things like that.  So because the game strategy is like that, maybe just because of that, people should be over-eighteen in order to progress with that, not to induce violence in kids.  It's another aspect because people, as they get more immersed in such kinds of action games, sometimes when it goes for kids and they try to experiment it at the end of the day.
Okay (laughs), yes, it could be risky.
That should not happen.  Again, there's another point that just hit me related to ethical issues.  For example, games like Pokémon and other things, they use a location, so I feel we should have a second thought with games that require your personal data, such as location, camera and your [0:29:47] mobile, access to your personal folder.  So I feel a game shouldn't have these things.  They shouldn't collect any individual data.
Hm-hm, I see.
At least when it goes for the collaborative medium.  So, when multiplaying, your personal data should not be exploited.  So I feel, yeah, it should not be.
Right.  What about another aspect that's often talked about with games, the way people are represented in games, or different sorts of people are represented in games?  Has that ever been a question you've considered?
No, actually.  For me, it was okay, it was absolutely okay, because as I said, the whole point of gaming for me is a matter of fantasy.  So I see everything as a fantasy.  So I didn't have a major concern of the characters or some people who are into their games or some different types of people are into games.  So I haven't noticed it, maybe because I see it more from a fantasy view.
Right, okay.  Good.  Okay, so let's have a look on the next slide, some of the key words that have come up related to ethical issues.
Okay, hm-hm.
So we've mentioned things like violence and aggression and so on…
Exactly, hm-hm.
…and what we were saying about identity and diversity.  So for you, if I understood rightly, you don't see it as a concern, things like representing different races or different genders, the way they are represented in a game as part of a fantasy world, yeah?
Yeah, that's true.
Okay.  What about the monetisation of games?
That can be done, but as I said, when a game is monetised it should have a value for that.  So—  Hello?
We had a dropout.  Can you say that again for a second?
Hello?
[anonymised], can you hear me?
Yeah.  Actually, I was telling that when an aspect of monetisation is involved, the game needs to have a value in order to be monetised.  So that value can be—  It's not only [0:32:14] but also it should create curiosity in people, it should create the curiosity.  So when you have that, then yeah, it can be monetised.  
But the thing I noticed about the mobile games is, whenever you are playing, all of a sudden your play gets interrupted and there pops an ad.  So that sort of disrupts my play completely and, instead, it creates an irritation.  So when you are into something deeply and all of a sudden it's getting intruded, that's not okay.  So this is getting monetised by developers, so I feel, yeah, that should not be done.  Maybe they should find some other medium to monetise their games, but not to disrupt the player and create sort of a negative experience.  Yeah, that's my concern.
Okay.  What about piracy?  We've mentioned the economics side of games.  How do you see that?  Although, you mentioned that you are prepared to pay a reasonable amount for a good quality game, but of course, some people aren't prepared or aren't able to, and so piracy is a problem.
Exactly.  What happens is, they try to gain money through this.  So what happens is one, [he has to pay for a game 0:33:44], one hundred dollars, and he can raise a copy online with which people can get for less than five dollars.  So if he's going to do that, then that gets spread and he earns more than a hundred dollars.
So yeah, piracy is big time evil and, yeah, the maker should find a way to somehow stop it, like somehow taking access off your internet or something to understand whether you are running a pirated version or not.  Yeah, I wouldn't support piracy in that regard.  So if you need an experience, then you'll have to go and pay for it.
Okay.  And one last key word there is inclusion.
Okay.  So, in what regard?
That's the inclusiveness of games.  So that's either all people are able to engage in a game experience, irrespective of their skills…
Age and—
…and your identity, or whatever.  Do you see that as an issue at any point?
Yeah, actually, that's a big research question, inclusion, I feel, because what happens is, a single game that cannot compensate all users because each and every individual they have their own perspectives.  They have their own skill sets and they have their own abilities and, for example, and they have their genre, which is the most important point I wanted to highlight because, yeah, not all people have the same face.  It's really hard to create a game that would suffice for all people.  So yeah, I haven't seen such a kind of game, [0:35:34] game.
I would say, okay, this inclusion is accessible when I play the same game as played by my dad [0:35:43].
Sorry, can you say that again?  Are you there?
Hello?
[anonymised], I missed you again.  Can you say that again?  Sorry.  Hello?
Actually, your voice is—  Hello?
Is it breaking up?
Yeah, yeah, I can hear you.
It's okay now?  Yes?
Hello?  Can you hear me?
I can hear you.  Can you hear me?  I'll try on the chat.
Hello?
Just a second.  Let's see if I can get you back on the chat.  Ah yes, we had—
[Geoffrey], are you there?  Can you hear me?
Can you hear me now?
Hello.  Yeah, yeah, now I can hear you.
Ah, good.  I think, yes, the connection is not very stable, unfortunately.
Okay, okay.  Now it's fine.
Now it's better?  Okay.
Yeah.  Actually, we were talking about inclusion and I was telling the fact that inclusion will be successful when I play a game and I'm happy about it and my dad plays the same game and he also gets the same experience as I am.  And the same goes for my family.  So if everyone could play that game, that's when the aspect of inclusion is successful, I feel.  But still, that's a bit difficult, I feel (laughs).
It is (laughs), to be able to provide a game experience that's equally engaging for a whole wide—
Yeah, satisfies all—
Okay, good.  Okay, so I think we can move on to the next theme now, which is games in society.  So, so far we've been talking mainly in terms of individuals and yourself and your own experience and your own view.  So now we're thinking more in terms of perhaps the influence that games may have on society in general.  Do you see games having any sort of particular influence at a society level?
Actually, I have seen some games that were having an impact on a part of society, say for example, college students or some youth or some people.  So I have seen such games that were making an impact on them.  For example, when [0:38:15] was launched, people were crazy about it, at least in my circle.  [0:38:19] I was the only person who hadn't tried it, but everyone was speaking about it and everyone was getting more into it.  So okay, that gave me a sort of curiosity of, okay, what is it that game has got?  Let me go and give it a try.  And that's how I came to that game.
So that's one element, and yeah, apart from that, I haven't seen some games that has influenced [0:38:44] in society.  Maybe in my locality it's like that, so—
So you see like a particular game that perhaps could become a sort of medium that different people engage with and somehow it gathers people together in an experience?  Is that the sort of influence you see to help socialisation?
Yeah, exactly.  So that's what I saw in that game, which I wanted to tell you about.  And there was another game, which is called 2048.  You have to solve the puzzle and you have to get the points of 2048, and that became famous among students and everybody was trying out that game, and it really went viral all of a sudden.  So maybe in a week or so it got a good boom and it was the talk of the town, actually.  And then later I also tried it and, yeah, people used to discuss how they [built 0:39:44] strategies to follow and maybe I personally would've got some three to four inputs, as in four strategies to resolve that game.  
So likewise, I feel, yeah, obviously they do have an impact, but in my aspect, if you ask as a whole of society, I see some parts of society gets influenced, but maybe not as a whole.
Right.  It's very interesting what you're saying about somehow games supporting socialisation, because I'm sure you've come across different opinions or impressions people have about computer games isolating people.
Yeah.
So that's quite different from the sorts of impacts that you see.
Yeah, that's true in a way.
Have you had any experience or seen or heard of people talking about an isolating influence that games may have on people, the opposite?
As in isolating them from their day-to-day activities, you mean to say?
Hmm.
Not such, because I haven't got that view, but instead, I used to [0:40:58].  I'm more interested towards the game that I am playing, so I don't think about what's happening around me.  So I used to get [0:41:05] aspect, so they feel themselves more immersed.  So they don't see themselves as isolated, but instead, they see themselves as immersed.  So if they ask, okay, how do you play  - oh like I’m immersed they don't say I'm isolated.  
So I got these kinds of experiences, and even I, myself, when I am completely into it, I wouldn't see myself as isolated.  Obviously if you take it as reality and I’m actually isolated from my activities, I'm completely watching a screen and I'm into it, focusing thoroughly, then, yeah, it's isolation.  But I wouldn't tell, okay, I'm isolated.  Instead, I'm enjoying the game, I would say.
Okay.  So it's your state of mind that's important?
Yeah, that's true.  Yeah, that plays [0:41:54].
No, that's very interesting.  Let's have a look at some—
But if you—
Go on.  Yeah?
But if you're going to consider—  This is from a gamer's perspective.  But if you're going to consider the perspective of their friends and relatives, they might consider it, okay, he's a bit isolated from the world because he's completely gaming.  So yeah, it's a state of mind at the end of the day.
So you think that it's something that fellow gamers or fellow players can appreciate and empathise with, but perhaps those without that experience might feel that there's a degree of social isolation through games?
Actually, I think this can be understood well only by a gamer.  Say, for example, if I'm a gamer, if I go and share my experience with a gamer, then only he will understand my experience.  So he can even say, okay, that's a good aspect, you played for five hours, which is great even I do play for six hours.  So they try to share experiences, whereas if I go and have a conversation with a non-gamer, then he would consider me like, okay, he's a bit isolated.  He's not into it and he thinks that I'm talking about something which is irrelevant to him.
So yeah, when you have a community of gamers, you should have equal [tasters 0:43:10] your differences and your likings, so that's when it works, I feel.  So that's when the socialisation will build.  So it's sort of a community.  The community of gamers collaborate, they interact with each other to share their experience, so that's when it expands, but not with someone who doesn't have experience with games.
Right, that's really interesting.  So this, I suppose, sort of gap that you see that can happen between people who play games and non-players…
Non-players, yeah, exactly, is the point.
…is that something specific to digital games, do you think, or does that happen in other circumstances with other pursuits, like, say, television or film or literature, or other forms of culture?
Usually I find it in games more because gamers have their own ideologies.  So yeah, I actually find it in games because when you consider other forms of entertainment, like movies or dramas, usually people will watch it and then they [0:44:15] their reviews up.  So you can even share about a movie, like, okay, I have seen this movie, it was good, or it was bad.  So I can share my review to a person who has seen that movie or who hasn't seen that movie and he'd be more interested to listen to my review, at least, even if he doesn't watch movies.  But whereas in the case of games, it will only interest a person who actually plays those games.  So that's what I mean to say, like it doesn't make an impact on a non-gamer.
So if I try to share my gaming experience with non-gamers, that's not going to [sound right 0:44:45] for him.  It's just another statement for him, and that's it; okay, he's just sharing some kind of statement.  But if I'm going to share with a gamer, it's not only that I'm giving him inputs but, in return, I will also get inputs from the gamer.  So he or she they [put forward a solution 0:45:04], like, okay, you can try like this, you can try these alternatives, you can experiment with this, so I find more opportunity for me to expand my gaming experience.
Right.  And just thinking about that experience you were talking about, a lot about perhaps the fantasy aspect, the narrative aspect and so forth, and how engaging that is for you, what about if we look at the key words here for games in society on the slide.  There's art in games.  Is art something that you would associate with digital games?
Yeah, I do associate it because, in reality, games should be artistic.  When we speak about the word 'fantasy', it needs to be artistic, it needs to have that creativity.  So art does have creativity, so I think art, yeah, plays a major role in bringing forth a better game.
Okay.  So it seems, if I understand you, you see this as being intertwined, interconnected between the fantasy and creativity…
Exactly, yeah.  So—
…and art are all—
Yeah, that's true.  So I see it in that aspect because when we create a world.  So for example, in games, you [need to put forward the game, so you need to put forward that world 0:46:21].  So in order to do that, you need to have a strong thought process.
Sure.
And later, then that comes out as art.  So whatever thought processes there have been, that's when you get players immersed into games.  So I feel art is a lot more interconnected.
Okay.  What about innovation in games?  How do you see that?
Yeah, innovation is also another aspect that pulls people because if you asked me 'what is another aspect you would say meant you liked games or you enjoyed playing games', I say that's innovation because there is some sort of innovation in games.  Say for example, in Call of Duty there was an episode where [0:47:07] should be happening in 2040 AC, and they'll bring all the future technology there.  So in the game, you can see all the future technology, and that can come [in even innovative minds are 0:47:16] into development.  So I feel, yeah, that aspect of innovation is also connected and its deeply [oriented 0:47:24].   More than art, I would see innovation is the key.
Okay.  So you feel it's like a very firm core theme of digital games, this element of innovation?
Innovation, exactly.
Right.  And do you feel that – you mentioned there in Call of Duty and so forth – there are other areas where you think you've experienced something that you would call innovative in terms of digital games?
In that regard, for example, maybe the first game that I played, like Far Cry, where I encountered [0:48:13] which I was telling you where I can go and I can do anything in [0:48:17].  So for example, the gaming was like you have to travel to a forest and you have to migrate between islands, so there you tend to encounter wildlife and so you'll have to fight with tigers and all.  So I felt it was innovative as an aspect of the game because games mean, okay, it's not that you take a mission and you just go for it and you go ahead with all those things, but there should be some other subordinate things also associated with the main mission.  So that's where innovation also comes into play.  You need to be highly innovative in order to bring all those routes together.
Okay, I see.  Good.  Okay, what about marketing?  Have you ever had experience of marketing of games?
Which I could see in social media now in Facebook and sometimes I used to see trailers on YouTube for games.  Yeah, the strategy of marketing has improvised and you can see it everywhere, even in Facebook, just because the browsers are reading our perspectives.  So if you're just going to go and search for a game on your browser, immediately you'll be getting suggestions on Facebook and YouTube related to such games.  So yeah, I feel that ability of marketing [0:49:35].
Have you gained any sort of impression of how these games are marketed or what sort of image is promoted in this form of marketing, online marketing?
Actually, I see it as one of the powerful tools nowadays because I was sharing my experience, like, four years ago when I used to play games.  So at that time, I never used to see an advertisement related to games anywhere.  So if I need to get to know about a game, then I have to interact with my friends, or people who have experienced those games.  So it's word-of-mouth.  So it just happens with word-of-mouth and not with some online advertisements or something.  So that's what I see as an improvisation.  
Nowadays, the strategy for marketing is quite high and I can see most things.  It's not about the game playing; also I can check reviews, how people are seeing those things, and I can also see 'what to dos'.  Like if I'm stuck somewhere in the game, I can see proper 'what to dos', real 'what to dos' from people who have played a game.  That is also a sort of marketing because they get a lot of views of their videos.
Sure, hm-hm.  So you see a sort of expansion of the different outlets talking about games that could be used for marketing purposes, and are used?
Yeah, that's correct.
Hmm, I see.  Okay, good.  Okay, so that more or less covers those main themes that we've outlined in the project so far.  Just in a way of concluding the interview, [anonymised], we'd like to give you the opportunity – and I'll just move on to the next slide, which is suggestions.  So you as a player, with your player hat on, if you like, if you had the opportunity to make suggestions in order to take games forward, say you could make suggestions to other players or game developers or to policymakers, or even to other players, to families or whatever, are there any suggestions that you would make, do you think, that could take games forward?
Okay, so first I'll start with a suggestion for developers.  In the first place, they should read the minds of players.  So they should conduct some sort of—  Before, for example, if there's a series of games, one, two or three, then before they leap from three to four, they should have a sort of feedback from players.  So, based on those feedbacks, they should put forward the next version, or the next series that they are trying to do.
There needs to be a lot of study about future technology, which is not possible now at the moment, presently which is not possible.  So they should bring forward all those fantasy elements into the picture.
Okay.  So you'd say there should be more technological development?
Yeah, exactly, that's one aspect.  Also, apart from technology, it is also about the thought process.  There, you bring some ideas and you put forward all those things.  So there, I mean to say, you need to consider all those aspects.  He's coming to play a game, which means he doesn't want to see what is existing, so you should give an experience to the player in such a way that he will experience something new that is out of this world.
Okay.
So yeah, this is how it needs to be, I feel.  And for distributors, I think, yeah, the price of games can be reduced in order to reduce piracy.  Instead, they can pull down the prices to a greater extent.  If a game is affordable for a person with its full features, or some promotions or something, then they can actually discard the aspect of piracy.  Some sort of promotions or discount coupons or something that they can distribute along with the game so that it even promotes the players to go forward and spend a couple of bucks to purchase the game, I feel.
So, different sort of monetisation strategies?
Yeah, and maybe some more new devices they can include, apart from whatever is existing.  So it's not about just a PC because the game has travelled a whole new level now to PlayStations.  So they have advanced to a whole new level and now they will have to do R&D to bring forward new devices, which would actually make the player go into [0:54:18] completely.  So, some R&D and things like that are there, but still I feel it's an active research area where they will have to explore the opportunities of new gadgets, technologies that can be put forward to enhance the player experience.
Okay, good.  Okay, so these are—  I'm just putting up the final slide there with some of the key words for suggestions which, as you can see, are different.  Stakeholder groups in the game world, if you like, and you've mentioned the developers there, and researchers as well, obviously, that would be involved in that sort of technological development you mentioned.  What about educators?
Educators?
Hmm.
So, actually, I feel in order to forward games in education, they need to have a proper [0:55:14].  I mean to say, they need to have games available for education.
Sure.
So that, again, goes back to the developers where they should again take some more room to build more games for an education purpose.  So that's when these educators can use all these games and take it towards their students.  So yeah, I feel it again goes back to the developers.
And have you got any other suggestions for those other groups there?
Institutions?
Hm-hm.
Institutions, I don't have any such comments.
Okay.  What about parents?
Yeah, parents, I would say (laughs), for example, my parents don't want me to sit for five hours and play games.
Sure.
And even if I'm going to do that, they would expect that I should learn something out of games.  Nowadays, games have been utilised in many sectors, so they should take this as an opportunity in order to bring forward more education-based games.  So if that is the case, then parents can support their kids.  For example, if they could learn maths, some basic maths, or a concept in maths through a game, then parents should be absolutely okay with that.
So it depends upon the genre of games.  So I feel parents can support more education games, I feel.
Hm-hm.  I guess they might be, I imagine, when you were talking before about the gap between gamers and non-gamers in terms of understanding what the game is about.
Yeah.
I guess, in a lot, not always but in a lot of cases, parents are often non-gamers, are they, and, as you mentioned, they're often concerned about what their kids are doing.
Yeah, exactly, and there are a lot of aspects also they are concerned, because it's not like we are just five hours completely into a game, but they are also more conscious about their health because it's not good to be seated continuously and stare towards a screen.  What happened in my case I just increased my eye power.
Okay (laughs).
In a matter of two months, that happened, and I could see that.  I used to get frequent headaches and things like that.
Oh, right.
So they are also concerned on these aspects for kids.  So your health is also associated with the fact that… when you are a constant gamer.
Right, okay.  Good.  Okay, thank you.  Well, I think—
And—
Go on.
There's one more thing I want to put forward about non-gamers.
Yeah, yeah.  Sure, hm-hm.
It's about their own perception.  Some people, whatever the best game is you want to put forward, they're not ready to play and they're not willing to play, and that may be their perception towards games.  They might think, okay, it's just a normal thing and I don't want to get into it.  So that mentality, like, I don't want to get into it, when people have such kinds of mentality, whatever the best game is put forward, it's hard to penetrate their minds.  So it also depends upon your individual perception towards games and—
What do you think might create that reluctance to enter into the game?
In the first place, I feel they will not have proper resources.  For example, I could have had a good gaming PC, but my family could not afford to do that.  So maybe he would have developed a hatred towards games just because he was not having the proper resource.
So yeah, resource is one aspect, and for others, it's more towards their liking.  I feel some people don't like games.  It's like, okay, no, I don't like—  Even if you try to say, okay, it's good, you can try, but no, they would say—  But there are a hundred aspects.  These things do have a societal impact when 90% of people are playing games, and that obviously impacts the other 10%, I feel.
Ah, right.
And at least in that 10%, 5% will convert and they'll try to experience that game at least once, I feel.
Right, I see.
When the majority of society is behind that, obviously you will try.
To give them the opportunity to experience that gaming experience?
Yeah, that's true, hmm.
Good.  Okay, well, [anonymised], thank you very, very much.  I think we can conclude more or less here.
Okay.
Is there anything that you'd like to comment on or to ask me about, or impressions or anything?
Actually, my perspective is just a sort of question.  I'm just curious to know how these developers brainstorm things.
Right.  When they're developing, the process?
I'm just curious to ask this question: How do they come forward with a strategy?
Right.  So that's something that you'd like to get a better understanding of?
Yeah.  So, out of curiosity, I'm asking this.
Oh right, I see.  Well, in this sense, I can't really (laughs) speak on behalf of game developers in the sense that my experience of it is fairly limited, and also limited only to the educational context.
Oh okay.
I mean, I have had some, I suppose, very, very basic—
As in games in education, you mean to say?
Hmm, yeah, not so much in the entertainment games.
Okay.  So what type of games do you think would influence the education sector and what is sort of more used in the education sector that you've seen?
Well, I think what we're seeing is that there is quite a variety of different approaches, in the sense that there are some people that are looking—  You mentioned things like trying to find a game to enhance mathematic skills, okay?
Okay, uh-huh.
So that's something.  So they can be, on the one hand, games that are very focused on specific knowledge or skills development in a particular area of education, in a subject area.  There are others which are quite, perhaps, wider and, in some cases, some educators are using also entertainment games as a way of engaging with their students and studying and looking at the different game mechanics and how they work, and also that can have an educational [value 1:02:03].  
Of course, another area that's becoming more and more popular is actually game-making in an educational context.  So, using the making of a game, designing and producing a game as, in itself, an educational experience.
Oh right.  Okay.
Perhaps the last of these is the one that I've had most experience of.
Oh right.  Oh, very interesting.
That's very, very interesting.  Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that was good to know and it was interesting.
Okay, [anonymised], thank you very, very much.
Thank you.
So at this point, as I said, I'll get back to you and I'll send you your participation certificate, acknowledging your contribution to the project, which I thank you for once again.
Okay.  Thank you.
And when the analysis of the interviews is done – of course, I didn't mention at the beginning, but you saw in the invitation that all the outputs from the interviews will be made anonymous – so while they'll be in the public domain, as it were, in terms of transcripts, all personal references will be removed.
Okay.
Although one thing I meant to ask you is that we're asking all the interviewees if they want their names to appear in the final research report, or not.  You can decide not to have your name included in the list of interviewees if you want.
I don't have a problem with it.
You don't have a problem, okay.  Fine, okay.
Yeah, you can include my name.  It should not be a problem.
Great.  Okay, that's fine.  Thanks, [anonymised].  And yeah, we'll also obviously let you know when the report is published so you'll be able to get a sense of what has come out of this interview process.
Sure, okay.  I will be more than happy to check that out.
Okay, then.  Well, thank you very, very much for your time and you'll hear from me very soon.
The pleasure is mine and, yeah, that was a good interview, indeed.  So, thank you.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, and good luck with the cricket.
(Laughs) Thank you.
Unfortunately, you might have realised from my accent, I'm Australian in origin, so Australia did very badly in the cricket, but India is doing much better.
Oh (laughs) yeah.  No, actually, we are in the semi-final, so hopefully—
In the semi-finals?
Yeah.
Well, good luck with the rest of the tour.
Thank you (laughs).  Thank you so much.  Have a good day.  Bye-bye.
You too.  Bye, [anonymised].  Bye-bye.