KEY
Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
[ ]:	Uncertain word(s)

Hello, [anonymised].
Hi there.
Hi.  Thank you very much for taking part in the interview.  This interview will be recorded.  I will ask you a number of questions about your role, your responsibilities, about the relationship between ethics and gaming, and the game development in general.  The aim of the project is to explore these kinds of alternative frameworks for the development and the usage of video games for educational, socially relevant purposes.
So I will ask you these questions.  You don't have to answer all the questions.  If you don't want to answer a question, you're free to say so, and we will skip it.
Sure, yeah.
And like I said, it's being recorded.  So are you okay?  Can we—?
Yeah, absolutely.  Go ahead.  Fire ahead.
Fantastic.  Okay.  One more thing I have to say, sorry, is the interview will be anonymised.  So we are interested in a number of themes across a range of interviews, rather than what specific people have to say.  Although, like I said, if there are specific quotes that we want to attribute to somebody, then we will ask their permission.
Okay, perfect.  Yeah, that sounds good.  Yeah, fine.
All right.  So the sort of objective of the project, like I said, is to explore ethical frameworks for the design, the development and the usage, also, of video games for kind of socially relevant purposes.  So let's start from there.  
What we're interested in in this interview is your specific perspective as somebody who has experience of the kind of agendas and policies in the sort of European context, because that's the kind of main framework in which we're operating with the project and the sort of recommendations that we also aim to produce.
So let's start a bit from your background, your involvement in negotiating, discussing and defining these strategies and these policies in relation to digital learning, gamification and so on.  So if you can maybe start from your trajectory and how you got to that kind of point and just explain a bit, yeah.
Yeah, no problem.  So I'm a civil servant, a policy officer at the European Commission in Brussels, and the Commission has around thirty-five different departments, similar to national government, covering environment, trade, agriculture, etcetera.  We have a small department working on education, and that maybe does two things.  First of all, we have the funding streams, which I'm sure you've heard about, for student exchange and plenty of other projects in the education field.  So we have that kind of programme element and then we have the policy coordination.
Now, the EU does not have any competence when it comes to education.  There's absolutely no legislation, no directives or regulations.  It's very much a member state [0:02:52] responsibility, but we do have a role of coordination.  So there's an article in the treaty which says that the Commission can help member states to improve the quality of their education systems, and that's where we come in.  
So we really bring the member states together to look at, as far as my work is concerned, kind of innovative education and how we can improve teaching and learning in Europe, because everybody faces similar problems of we're trying to adjust our education systems to the digital world.  Kids need new skills and competences, and teacher education obviously needs to take into account digital learning as well.
So I'm working with all of the ministries of education in Europe and education stakeholder groups, you know, NGOs for example, trade unions, business organisations, and we have what we call a working group, or an expert group, looking at digital education.  So really, the two aspects of skills needs, additional skills, and also how digital technologies can help improve teaching and learning.  So, looking at the kind of two dimensions really, and we meet approximately every second month, either in Brussels or in the member states, looking at good practice, sharing experience and working together on outputs.  We cover a whole range of topics, from data in education, to the girls agenda in ICT, to education/industry partnerships, formal and informal learning.  So, the whole gamut of topics in the digital learning sphere.
So that's my work in a nutshell.  I could go into more detail.  We also fund research and we have a number of kind of programme networks, online tools, but in the main, that's what we're doing really.  We're in the business of kind of policy coordination and sharing experience across countries.
Right, okay.  Can you tell me about the relationship between this work that you described and, in particular, the area of gamification, game-based learning in relation to, obviously, digital learning, the digital skills agenda?  How did that emerge, if you can maybe share how that—?
To be honest, I think it's a topic we probably haven't dealt with very much.  We have a mandate for a working group, which is decided by the ministers of education, and gaming isn't one of the topics but, of course, we could deal with it at some point.  There have been a lot of discussions around data, so I suppose the data generated by gaming is of interest, of controversy.  So we have looked at the whole kind of data angle and ethics around that.  We rarely get into the kind of micro details, the kind of products that are being used in the classrooms.  I suppose that's not something that we can maybe do at the European level.  We're too kind of [0:05:45] to go into that, if you know what I mean.
Sorry, I should just mention, too, that I'm a student at the University of Edinburgh.  I'm doing a masters in digital education.  So some of what I say is also kind of informed by my student—
Okay.  I know their masters.  You're working with—   Yeah, I know the people that are—
Yeah, Sian [Dane and Jane Ross].
Yeah, Sian [Dane and—]
Yeah, Hamish.  Yeah, yeah.  So I'm just—
And Jeremy.
Jeremy Knox.  Yeah, exactly.  So, sorry, some of that I should have said at the beginning.
That's all right.
So I am a civil servant, but I'm also a student.  So we've been looking at Minecraft and other games within that course.  So I would say it's not a topic which we've really looked at very much.  Possibly we should.  Possibly we should.  Again, we tend to work more at a kind of systems level, if you know what I mean.  So we're really looking at policy levers, we're looking at teacher training, we're looking at organisations.  So, the whole school approach and digital integration as a whole.
So I think, from that perspective, it would be unusual for us to really get into kind of curriculum design, although there is [0:06:55], you will get the countries asking although curriculum is supposed to be a no-go area for us because it does say in the treaty that we can't have any say on national curriculum or local curriculum.  Fair enough, that's not our remit.  So that might explain, to some extent, why gaming hasn't come up so much, but there is an interest.  You will hear people who are for Minecraft, for and against in the classroom.  I think there is an interest there, but it's not a topic we've gone into in much detail.  But, you know, to mention that we have done data and, of course, there's an overlap there.
Right, okay.
Does that make sense?
That makes sense and it gives me a good idea of the overall kind of level of… yeah, the discourse, the way things are being—  So would you say that there have been, as far as you're aware of, obviously, discussions about the role of games?  Obviously it would reference, for example, Horizon 2020, okay?
Yes, yes.
A well-funded programme of work around gamification, game-based learning, and generally, also, beyond education.  Generally, very often games are featured in Horizon 2020 projects or calls as one way, for example, to reach wider audiences, that you have more impact, that you're engaged with people.  I'm interested in the sort of discussions that may or may not have happened around the reason why the role of games and, in particular, the sort of questions that they may bring in terms of how behaviours are being sort of encouraged or engineered, and whether there has been any sort of discussion around those things.
I'd say, yes, for sure there's a Horizon 2020 funding stream.  That's not led by our department.  That's led by Digi Connect, who lead on the whole digital single market.  So we would work with Digi Connect on, more or less, a daily basis because digital obviously spans different departments.  So Digi Connect lead on the H-2020 funding stream on gaming.  I mean, I'm in touch with Marco's team in Luxembourg and, indeed, I think I met you or colleague down in Luxembourg when I went to present.
Indeed.  Yes, exactly.
Yeah, so there's a strong—  In terms of learning analytics and gaming, I think Marco's team has been funding that for quite some time now.  You have Rage, I think, as one of the networks, so they're funding that and their department would be also more focused on industry.  So, industry needs and also encouraging start-ups.  
Obviously the gaming industry is a big job creator and an engine of growth in Europe and we have a lot of leading firms working on gaming, some of it in the education space and some of it just in the leisure space.  So I think that department is definitely more industry led and driven, whereas our stakeholders tend to be more within the ministry of education.  Now, that blurs a little bit because their departments are working more in the education space, but just to say that, historically, their funding would have much more closer contacts with industry than ours would have.
Does that make sense?
Oh, that makes a lot of sense actually, and that opens up an interesting discussion, I think, in terms of the fact that there seems to be an interest in those kinds of programmes to develop an industry of serious and applied games.  So, at least to encourage or to stimulate growth in that particular area.
Yes, that may be a policy aim coming from… well, the Commission as a whole, but that would be driven by their department rather than our department.  We're really looking at the quality of education systems, and they're looking at stimulating growth in terms of a digital single market and opportunities for European business.  So our departments were definitely starting from a different place but, ultimately, they're all European Commission policies.
Right, okay.  So would you say that there is or there isn't a kind of communication, for example, between this kind of more industry-led focus and the kind of more education-led focus that you may have?
Yeah, there should be more, and I think we're doing our best to try and communicate across teams.  So I was at that meeting in Luxembourg and then I invited some from Marco's team to a meeting we were having in Belfast on industry/education partnerships to tackle the digital skills gap.  That was a kind of study that we did with our group.  So I think there's a lot of willingness, but it takes a lot of effort to overcome those kinds of bureaucratic barriers that all kinds of government departments have, don't they?  You know, you have your own language, your own stakeholders and… you know.
So I think we are making more of an effort, and Marco's team are really keen to plug into the policy work as well because, of course, projects like yours are supposed to inform policymaking.  That's why we fund them as well.
Indeed, yeah.
It's not just funding for the sake of funding; it's funding to then influence policy at EU level and national and local level.  So I think there's more potential to build bridges, for sure, between the two, I think.
One other thing that we're trying to do with this project is also to look at the sort of interfaces between, actually, the mainstream video game industry and the serious and applied.
Interesting, yeah.
We have people on board from that more kind of entertainment arguing that, actually, this kind of distinction may not be very productive and that, basically, there may be lessons learned or principles coming from the mainstream video game industry that can be beneficial.
Right, right.
And also, if we look at the way, very often, games are used in schools and education – Minecraft might be the classic example – whether that kind of distinction still has a reason to exist.  
So that is something that we are very much interested in because if we remove that distinction, then a number of kind of ethical questions about the way mainstream games achieve their objectives, the way they engage people through the use of rewards, through, let's say, very often by analysing data streams in a very kind of detailed way to tailor experiences and all that kind of thing.  So there's these kinds of questions that we are kind of grappling with at the moment and I was just wondering whether there is any awareness of those kinds of issues?
Yeah.  I mean, our education, as I mentioned, [0:14:01] we would have always interfaced with the ministries of education and those pure educational stakeholders.  I mean, certainly our rhetoric is a lot, at the moment, around working more with industry.  Certainly when you look at digital skills and employers' needs, if you read any policy statement from us, it will say we need to work in partnership with industry, and also informal and formal learning.  So we know that a lot of interesting learning is taking place outside of the classroom and, when it comes to digital skills, there's a lot of coding clubs taking place, Minecraft clubs after school and at the weekends.  
So we know we have a major policy problem, which is that we are very loaded to the [0:14:41] Europe and we have massive job shortages and job mismatches, and that's just in, say, the ICT industry needing all these specialists.  We're projecting shortages of 500,000 people in ICT jobs by 2020.  I mean, that's insane.  So we're working very hard to tackle that digital skills gap and we know that we can only do that in kind of partnership with industry.
The rhetoric may be easy, but I think the reality is tricky, and I think for ministries, for local kind of education councils, it's not always easy to work with industry.  It's complex because the industry is big and we tend to think of the Microsofts and the Googles and the Apples, and they do have a dominance when it comes to educational products, and then your industry which is small kind of start-ups.  So it's not a kind of blanket term where you should be careful about putting everyone in the same basket.
I think it's still a tricky field for education.  To what extent should you partner up with Microsoft, should you take free products from Google, should you send your teachers on Apple certified training?  It's tricky.  Some countries are more comfortable with that than others.  We were in Belfast for the [0:15:54] visit and you could tell that the UK is much more comfortable than other countries in partnering with industry.
Now, we had a presentation from BT and they have a big teacher training programme, whereas I know in Germany, for example, they're very, very sensitive to having any education/industry partnership.  So it's tricky.  I think we know that we can only do it with industry because industry often has the know-how, they can often create training programmes in a much quicker, more agile way and they can pay for things, they can bring speakers in so the kids see real life examples of people from the ICT industry.  So there are loads of pluses, but how to get there is a little bit tricky.
So I think that sensitivity, which is different from country to country, region to region, is something to bear in mind, and the dominance of the big players is a bit troublesome as well, isn't it?  Schools that are Microsoft schools, schools that are Google schools, I don't know, is that ideal?  I'm not sure if they [0:16:56].  But when schools are short of money and then a company comes along with sponsoring tablets or services, you know.  
Anyway, just to say that it's a complex space.  We know that we need to partner more with industry.  What are the ways to do it?  How do you do it?  How do you do it ethically?  It's a tricky one.  Some parents mightn't be happy either with industry partnerships.  So I don't know; a question mark.
So I think that's a space that is changing because we know, especially when it comes to digital skills, that it can only be done in partnership.  But how you get there, what you accept, what you don't accept.  And then some schools say that they're getting too many offers, especially schools in urban areas.  Sometimes the rural schools complain that they're not getting enough, they're not being solicited enough by companies, but certainly schools in urban areas, if there's a tech sector – I'm thinking of Dublin, where I'm from – it can be overcrowded on kind of offers from companies to trial their products.  And, of course, they're free to make claims.  That's the other thing, I suppose.
I went to Bett.  You probably know Bett in London.
Yes, yes, I know Bett.
Yeah.  I was kind of there with my student hat and my policy hat on, but it was kind of fascinating and a bit scary to see 800 vendors selling their products, all claiming to—
It's fascinating.
It's fascinating to go with a kind of critical eye.  It's an interesting experience.
Totally.
Of course, Microsoft claim that Minecraft will revolutionise the classroom, and you're thinking, hmm, where's the evidence research here, who has validated this?  It's very easy to make claims about engaged kids and that it holds their interest, but I think you'd like to see some kind of rigorous, independent science behind these claims.
Indeed.
I think that's something where, as policymakers, we need to tap into the research community much more to be able to verify the claims made by industry on how these products can help learning.  Does that make sense?  Sorry, I'm rambling.
That makes sense, absolutely.  You should check out one of the first [0:19:06] that we produced, which is kind of a systematic review on research on game-based learning, gamification.
Oh, nice.  I'll definitely look at that.
It's on the website.  I can send you the latest links.
Yeah, I saw your website this morning.  Yeah, I have it open still.
Right, okay.  I'll move on very quickly to kind of a more specific question actually, if you don't mind.
Sure, go ahead.
I would like to have your opinion, your perspective, as someone involved obviously in policies and strategies.  So, from that kind of perspective, in what ways can games or gamification or game-based learning, that capacity to engage and entertain, how can that capacity be harnessed, and can that capacity be mishandled, or can it be enhanced?  So I'm interested in your perspective as somebody who may or may not have taken part in discussions, but really, that kind of—
Yeah, I suppose evidence based is what we preach a lot here, about education policies should be evidence based.  It's difficult because education systems are very slow to change, aren't they?  I think that's probably kind of universal and you can't make every generation a guinea pig for a revolutionary new kind of redesign of your education system.  So I suppose, by their nature, they're kind of slow moving, but I think the education community would be open to seeing some evidence on how games are improving learning, and as I mentioned in my last kind of ramble, that that isn't industry sponsored as well.  So, kind of robust, independent research, I think would really help.  
I know there's been a report issued recently, and I haven't seen it yet, but my colleague in Northern Ireland told me there's a report on Minecraft helping in maths in primary schools, and he was very happy with the research, which involved Microsoft.  It seemed to be done in a very independent way and it showed that boys especially were responding to using Minecraft to help them improve their numeracy in their primary years.  So, for policymakers, that's really interesting if they can really see the evidence.  So it's kind of looking beyond the commercial and seeing the kind of benefits.
I think there's an appetite for innovation.  I don't see any education system in Europe really kind of pushing back on this.  So I think that policymakers would be hungry for this kind of evidence and research to show the benefits of gamification.
Yeah, does that partly answer your question?
Yeah, definitely.  Definitely.  Just following on from that, the mainstream gaming industry over the past, I would say, five years or so, has been kind of rocked by a number of debates about gender minority representation, about the composition of development teams and the fact that they are mainly dominated by the same sort of demographics – white, male, privileged background – and those kinds of debates have resonated across the industry.  One of the objectives that we have as a project is to sort of consider, analyse the repercussions of those kinds of debates in what's happening, for example, in sort of the European gamification and game-based learning sector, whether there is any concern, whether, for example, from a policy perspective, there should be a discussion about how these products are made.
Yeah, absolutely.  Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I don't know.
Absolutely.  I mean, the gender issue is a major policy concern.  You'll see it come up again and again in speeches and statements from the Commission.  I mean, in 2013, we did a study on women in the ICT industry, which I can send to you, which just shows, like you were saying, it's not just the gaming industry, it's across the board in ICT, that fewer girls are taking ICT as a subject.  Fourteen seems to be an age for girls to drop out of ICT.  It's generally about ICT in particular.  So you get fewer girls going into ICT studies at an upper level, and then of those girls, very few go into the industry, and of those, very few go into management in the industry.  So you've got this leaky pipeline, starting around the age of fourteen, going on.  
So that's a major concern for us and that's something that we want to redress because it's an opportunity lost for women, and it's bad for the industry as well to have it so male dominated.
And looking, for example, at Horizon 2020 and the way the programme has been structured, do you think that is something that should be more reflected in maybe—?  I'm just trying to understand whether that kind of thing can help shape future direction, and in what way, as far as, for example, these large funding programmes are concerned?
Yeah.  Well, I mean, I would love to see something written more on the gender dimension as well, you know, funding more research on gender gaps in all the member states.  I mean, when we talk about it in our group, everybody's concerned and everybody's looking for a kind of good solution.  So, whether it's mentoring schemes for young girls or internships, or dedicated coding clubs, especially from the age of fourteen onwards.  We were looking at CoderDojo and how they have a real drop off rate in the early teens, and they've had quite a success at running girls-only coding clubs.
So everybody's looking for the good examples, and I'd love to see that whole gender dimension worked more into our funding programmes.  It's something I'd love to see [0:24:28] our own funding programme, but also in H-2020.  But definitely it's high on the political agenda.  The new Commissioner for Digital, she's Bulgarian – so, a woman as well – so I can see this issue kind of taking off even more.  
You probably don't know the Digital Skills Coalition for kind of tackling the digital skills gap.  So we have these national coalitions and I know they're about to make girls in ICT one of their kind of lead areas for the coming months.  So there's definitely an appetite to do more, and that should be reflected in something, I think, as well.
Right, okay.  All right, okay, well that was my last question.
Yeah, cool.
So I don't have anything else, and you've been absolutely fantastic.
Well, I hope that helped.
Oh yes, very helpful.
Yeah, I hope that helps.
Yes.  If you have any other questions for me, just please ask, or if you're running out of time for another commitment, you can do it at any time.  
Okay, perfect, yeah, and if you want to do a follow-up or ask any more questions, no problem.
Oh, that would be great.  Obviously we'll be in touch with how things obviously develop and the outputs.  I've already mentioned the outputs in the first one that we produced, but there will be other outputs based on these interviews and the main themes coming out of them.  So yeah, we'll be in touch with all those.
Great.  And you know there's a gaming conference in Ireland as well in September, in Cork?  Have you followed that?
Oh no, I wasn't aware.  We are going as a project, attending the game-based learning conference in Austria, which is in October.  So I wasn't aware of this one, which is a shame actually.  If you can send me a link—
Well, I can send you a link, no problem.  I came across it on one of my mailing lists, so yeah, I think it's often in Dublin, and this year it's in Cork.  I think it's September, but I'll send you the link so you're aware.
Right.  Yeah, thank you, that would be great.
Yeah, no problem.  Okay.
Thank you very much, [anonymised].
Yeah, no problem.  Stay in touch, and I'm here if you need anything else.
Thank you.  Bye.
Okay, take care.  Take care.  Bye-bye.