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Bold:	Interviewer
Regular:	Respondent
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Thank you very much for being interviewed; you’ve obviously had the information about the project via email, but I’ll just give you a little, a brief outline that kind of sums up what we’re doing if that’s all right, from the start. 
So the Gaming Horizons project is a European funded project, funded by the 2020 funding.  Our aim is to kind of look and explore the kind of discourses that go on around gaming and video gaming in terms of education, society and culture, and kind of open up a dialogue that maybe explores different avenues that aren’t currently getting explored at the moment.  We’re aiming to bring together a group of different experts, of which we would consider you one.  We’re talking to researchers, game developers, players, educators, so a whole range of people and this interview is one of about sixty that we’re going to be doing, recording, transcribing and then kind of putting them together as a pool of data to look at the kind of discourses that are coming out of that.  We’ve done a big literature review at the beginning of the project and really we’re just looking at different ways of kind of framing and thinking about video games.  
Yeah, okay. 
Your voice is kind of really valuable in that. 
No, I thought you hadn’t heard me speak for while, you might want to know I’m still here (laughs). 
Oh right, thank you, yeah, yeah.  That’s the thing with Skype isn’t it, you kind of have to keep checking in and wondering if it’s cut out.  
Yeah. 
No, that’s good.  The kind of format of the interview today, I’ve got a kind of grid of possible questions, so it’s not a kind of laborious process of having to ask every single question, it’s really more of a prompt, a kind of informal interview as a prompt to ask you to talk really.  So it’s more of a discussion but obviously we’d like to hear, after I’ve finished babbling on at the beginning, we’d like to hear more from you than we do of me really.  
So I’ve got a number of different areas to talk about.  Is there anything there that you want to ask more about, or anything that doesn’t make sense?
That’s all perfectly clear. 
Good, that’s a good start.  Okay.  So I’ll begin, we’ll see where the conversation takes us, feel free to stop me or to just clarify anything, but I think it should flow fairly easily hopefully. 
So I’m going to start by asking you about your background really, and your interests and your kind of research that you’re involved in related to gaming and video gaming.  
Okay, no problem.  I suppose I started, I was originally a learning technologist, a computer scientist and was given the opportunity to do a PhD, oh god, nearly sixteen years ago now; and decided to for [0:03:06], originally going to look at computer game design, because it was about the only thing I could think of possibly wanting to look at for six years; and then computer games in education.  So I finished that in 2007 and looking back at it now, what I ended up creating, what was essentially an online multiplayer escape room, which was set, and it was kind of comparing that sort of climate of experience with alternative non-game based online collaborative experiences; and that’s what got me into games in the first place, or into video games.  
I am a video game player, but I very much play sort of old-fashioned computer adventure games, and I suppose more casual gaming now; I might be pre-empting the earlier, the next questions, so that’s where I sort of situate my own play.  
So then I’ve worked on various sort of video game-y projects; so I did one which was about alternate reality games for student induction; I think you’re working with Geoff, so I worked with him on a project which was about using game making as a pedagogy in high schools.  I’ve done a project which is around looking at the ways that older adults use games.  I’ve done a project a couple of years ago, which resonates quite a lot with what you’re doing, which was about how games represented, were represented in the British media and the discourses that we used around video games.  
What I’m doing at the moment, I think, so probably around 2010, where there was a kind of change in government and the move to austerity, I got less interested in video games and more interested in games, more traditional games, board games, card games, that kind of games; and I think more recently still, probably into sort 2014/15 I’ve become more interested in playing as a pedagogy and how even just playfulness can achieve some of the aims that game based learning could achieve, but much more simply and much more acceptably, and much more, with more, I suppose quickly and cheaply.  So the projects I have at the moment are, right well we have, I co-chair a [big people 0:05:28] which is in its second year, playful learning, which is, I mean it doesn’t exclude video games but it sort of looks at the whole thing from a [0:05:40] perspective, looking much more about the sort of play side of games, because there’s quite a lot written about the pedagogy of games, about gamification and engagement, and much less about play, and that’s I suppose where I am theoretically at the moment.  
That’s great.  There’s so much there, there’s so many kind of different avenues we could take the conversation in.  We’ll try and take it in a number of different ones and we’ll also come back to your kind of personal relationship with games in a bit as well.  
I suppose, you’ve talked about so many kinds of different projects, so a kind of rich experience in different aspects of video games.  Some words that you didn’t mention that I’m going to throw in to see what you think about them, the kind of idea of applied or serious gaming and entertainment gaming, people make that distinction often, is that a distinction that you would make, and one that you find helpful or not?
Oh well you’ve hit a sore point because quite a lot of what I do in retrospect is ranting about the word ‘serious’ games; I hate the phrase, I absolutely hate it.  I think, I appreciate why it needs to exist, but I actually think it undermines the playfulness that is so powerful in games. 
Agreed, yeah. 
And that, I mean I prefer ‘applied games’ I think that’s, it doesn’t have a kind of negativity to playfulness.  Again that seems to be an emerging, probably from the EU, it’s quite a recent term, so I think it’s definitely better than ‘serious games’.  ‘Entertainment games’, yeah, sadly I think there is a definite, a clear distinction between applied games and entertainment games, and I think this – I’ve yet to see very many applied/entertaining at all, sadly, but you know, I’ve not played everything that’s out there, so I could be very wrong. 
Any idea why you think that is, why those – by the way the sound keeps, every so often it just cuts out slightly, so if I miss understand something it’s partly because of that. 
No problem, it’s doing the same this end as well, so if I ask for a repeat, it’s probably my rubbish Wi-Fi.  
Oh it’s equally here.       
So yeah, why do you think there is that distinction in terms – you said, I think you said, that you’ve not kind of experienced applied/entertainment games as a thing, do you think – why do you think they don’t exist?  Or do you think they are thought of in that way, any idea?
I think it’s because peo- educationalists – well from my experience of the projects that I’ve been involved with and in my reading of literature, is that the main GBL projects either come from a games company trying to create something or game designers that are trying to something educational or educationalists that go, ah, how hard can it be to design a game (laughter).  Or, so all – I mean sometimes you get sort of small pet projects but two domains that don’t necessarily talk to each other very well and they either end up being good learning activities that aren’t really games, or great games that are no good for learning, or just fairly awful, something in the middle.  
So I think it’s one – and again this is kind of one of the reasons that I stopped being that interested in video games, because it’s much easier to – I run a course on educational game design, but it’s very specifically on, when we run it we try and get people to design using not computer games, because you can do non-digital games very, very quickly, you can get the ideas out there without all the time and energy and expense and knowledge that you need to prototype a video game.  
Yeah, absolutely, and still have that kind of playful engagement that is what you’re saying you’re currently interested in.  
Absolutely, and I think also I’m getting much more interested in sort of design.  So we’ve got a project at the moment which is about getting people to design escape rooms, so it’s kind of going right back to completely non-digital, although we’re designing sort of digital interfaces in the escape rooms.  But it’s all about the collaboration and teamwork and creativity and problem-solving that goes into the design process, and actually the product, it’s really neither here nor there, but it’s just watching what goes on in the design. 
So it sounds like that, that kind of process of design making sounds quite social, do you think that’s where, there’s the potential for games being involved in social change, or having a social impact, or can gaming itself be a social thing? 
I think possibly; we had a project a few years ago which was called ‘Games for Social Change’ and the thing, it was only an AHL [0:10:48] project and it was a networking project, the thing that struck me most about it was that it was, it ended up being a lot of white middle-class young people designing games for social change to other people, and I think, this is why a lot of the kind of gaming projects go wrong, because they don’t involve users all the way through, they design play without necessarily thinking about what other people would like to play, or how, whether the whole concept is even appropriate in the first place.  
So I have, I’m writing quite a lot about sort of play as a privilege and the critical pedagogy side of play that, what are we actually teaching by using play and how can play be very exclusive, particularly with computer games, ideas around gender, ideas around gaming [0:11:39] don’t really get picked up that much.  So I’m always very worried about, when people sort of say, applied games, because I don’t feel there’s a need, I think there are other ways of going out to social [0:11:55].  Like, I suppose, it doesn’t seem that there is really that – these sort of games need to be driven by the community, not imposed upon the people who want to create a game for social change.  
Yeah, that makes sense.  So kind of involving the people who will be playing the games themselves as an approach. 
Sorry, you cut out there, can you repeat that bit. 
No worries, I was saying, it sounds like you’re talking about an approach where you would want to involve the people who are actually going to be playing the games and the kind of making and thinking about the game process itself. 
Absolutely, yeah.  
You touched a bit on ethics there and the kind of ethics or politics around gaming and the kind of ethical implications and I think you hinted at the fact that those kind of things aren’t talked about.  Could you elaborate on the ethics of gaming at all for me?
Oh, do you mean gaming and education or gaming full stop?
I think, well I’m interested in your opinions on both I suppose, so it depends on how you want to frame it.  In terms of education, yes, but I suppose also more broadly because education would sit within that more broad kind of picture, does that make sense?
Yes, okay.  And again gaming, are we talking video gaming specifically, or all types of gaming?
Well I think you’ve also drawn some points, you’ve also kind of illustrated some stuff that shows that ethics around play isn’t necessarily video game play itself, but video games are implicated.  So if we say, the ethics of the issues around video gaming, but that can go more broadly, go wherever you feel to be honest. 
Okay.  I mean I suppose there are the obvious, as soon as you take video gaming into account, then there is the issues of representation in the games, and again minority representation in games and the demographics of those who play games and the engagement in gaming communities and just the way that boys and girls interact playing games.  So there’s the [0:14:18] it’s an ethical consideration, probably the latter.  I think there are issues around violence in games; now without getting into the whole debate around violence in games, I think there are two things; one, I think it very probable that for certain people playing certain games has effects in how they view the world and how they view violence in the world.  We can’t on one hand say that we can learn things through [0:14:48] that somebody can play a game and not learn something.  However, I think that’s a very, that really gets the whole games and [0:14:59] the educational games arena whereas I’ve never seen any games educator suggest that they’re using 18 games, so I think in a way it’s a bit of a red herring.  
I suppose the other, I mean around gaming, we’re doing a project at the moment which is, it’s called a game, but it’s not really a game, it’s a quiz with a wheel of fortune, so it has elements of gambling in there.  So I think games of chance and gambling, and links to addiction and I suppose the whole addiction side is another ethical issue, again I sort of take the line that the media hype about such things are massively overblown, but for certain people in certain circumstances it is an issue, and therefore you can’t sort of say, everybody who plays this is going to get addicted, or on the other hand saying, there is no such thing as gaming addiction, because it’s far more nuance than some [0:16:00], those are kind of well-trodden paths.  
I suppose for me the ethics as well is to do with, there’s a monetary imperative now, because most of my work is in higher education, that we have students who are paying £9,000 a year, who, whether they’re consumers are not I think has been out for debate, but they definitely have more of an instrumental mind-set around their degrees, and to say, actually we’re going to play, without contextualising, or assuming levels of confidence, social capital, attitude towards failure, we assume a lot when we say, actually let’s just play.  So I think it’s about recognising that the very act of playing becomes, assumes certain privileges and how we interact with others in how – what was I going to say, just the kind of social and financial and cultural capitals that people need to play, and I don’t think, I think because most games research is done by gamers and most playful teachers are playful people.  I [0:17:21] we don’t necessarily think about those people that don’t sit within the same paradigms.  
I think you’ve touched on some really interesting strands there, that I think you said earlier, there’s some things that we don’t particularly talk about in terms of ethics and I think you’ve outlined some of the things that we do talk about more often in terms of violence and in terms addiction, but yeah, that kind of assumption of the positivity of playfulness for everyone is a thing that doesn’t necessarily get talked about, so it’s good that you’re talking about it here. 
Yeah, I mean there’s a really good paper by, I think his name’s Ken Jones, it’s quite old, sort of early nineties, I think, and it’s the only one that I’ve really seen that says, actually, it’s actually about role play but it’s saying, we say in a role play that everybody goes into role play and everything is then equal and what happens in the role play stays in the role play and then you come back and you debrief and you’re back in the real world, and it’s actually saying, this is a load of whole nonsense.  That what happens in gaming situations actually doesn’t, well post-game and the relationships that happen and it isn’t as simple as debriefing and it’s not necessarily bad, but it’s something that we don’t, we’re quite trite about, saying, oh when you play the game the boundaries are different, you come back into the real world and nothing is [0:18:49], which I don’t think that’s really true. 
Yeah, so there’s kind of this romanticised picture about what happens with play, but that doesn’t necessarily play out in our experience of the world. 
It can do, it can do for people that understand play, but if you’ve got somebody who doesn’t really, isn’t [0:19:10] and really get the – because a lot of play signals are very tacit and if you don’t understand those then you’re [0:19:20] necessarily different.  
Yeah, that makes sense.  Great, thank you.  
If we – you mentioned close to the beginning about your own kind of relationship with games, I suppose – well if we can separate our research in our lives, we should probably look at – yeah, can you talk about your own kind of experiences again?  I suppose I’m asking you that to get an idea of, what do you, what sort of games do you play, and after that, what do you get from playing I suppose?  Again I’ll talk about video games there, if we can use that as a starting point. 
Okay, I suppose I’m a child of the eighties, well no, I was growing up in the eighties, so I was obviously Sinclair Spectrum brigade. 
Oh me too, yeah. 
Yeah, so I started on things like the Hobbit and Pharaoh’s Tomb, Pimania, all that kind of stuff, and I was definitely, yeah I played other [0:20:19] I think I’ve got no coordination, I can’t really be bothered with things that require me to get a physical sort of, to repeat the same physical patterns, so I never really got very good at anything, apart from Chucky Egg and I nailed Chucky Egg.  But I quite like the adventure games, I used to play them with my mum, so we’d just sit and we’d kind of talk through them. 
Are we talking kind of text adventure games there?
Yeah, it was really text adventure games and then in the nineties I got into things like the Roman Sword, Guybrush Threepwood from Monkey Island is still my hero.  Simon the Sorcery, point and clicks, those type of adventure games.  
Now that I’ve got children of my own, I play them with, I’ve got a seven year old and a five year old, and we’re all very into Nancy Drew, so we’ll put that up, we’ll basically attach the laptop to the telly, and one of us will have a mouse and the three of us will sit around and we’ll discuss the puzzles and we’ll take it in turns to solve various bits of them.  So though, I suppose – I play games for two reasons, one is to be kind of social with my children, and because I love adventure games and they both really get [0:21:41], but I also, I’m also a very solitary gamer; I like to play on my own.  
I don’t really do – a friend of mine got me into, it’s like World of Warcraft - Guild Wars, and was wanting to the quest virtually and I kind of, like did it on my own, but as soon as there’s another real person there it became too much like pressure and too much effort to be there at a certain – so I suppose now, if I’m on my own and – I do occasionally try to play an adventure game, but I don’t find that I’ve got enough time, solid blocks of time to play anything meaningful, because then I’ll come back to it and I’ve forgotten what it was all about. 
I know the exact experience, yeah.  
So I [0:22:31] Big Fish and rubbish adventure games, so yeah, it’s kind of, your more sort of casual adventure games type things, and I suppose strategy games, just things, it’s not because I think they’re a good game or anything, it’s because they’re a game that I can play in [0:22:50] and not really have to pick up a plot or remember where clues were hidden or, there’s no great mental baggage involved.  
I also play games by phone and they are just, I’ve got one called Two Dots, which is, it’s, yeah, it’s basically if you’ve got five minutes you can play that, and again it’s all about not really having to think.  So it’s quite nice, I like playing with my girls, because when, they’re now [0:23:20] do properly hard games and talk it through together, but it’s a very different experience from playing on my own.  
Yeah.  So you’ve described multiple, kind of game players, the experience of multiple, you’ve got lots of different ways of playing, lots of different reasons to play, and lots of different reasons why you kind of, your play is constrained I suppose. 
Yeah. 
Across those sorts of games that you talked about, and the games that you’ve talked about in your research, there’s obviously a kind of range of different, a range of different sorts of games, a range of different things that you get out of them.  In terms of, I suppose, it doesn’t matter whether it’s your personal experience or your research, or a combination of both, what do you think games are good at, or good at developing, or good at changing, what is there in those games that you’ve talked about that’s positive?
Well I suppose there are skills, sort of transferable skills, so they’re good for collaboration, they’re good, certain games are good for teamwork, particularly thinking about things like World of Warcraft, or – and again collaborative games not so, I’m playing Pandemic, I’ve got a friend who’s [0:24:38] and he comes round and we play Pandemic with them, and my kids, and I think that’s very good for kind of thinking ahead, strategic thinking, collaboration, so there’s all those kind of skills.  
For me, I suppose where my research is going is about how play can help us learn through failure, and we don’t fail enough; you know again most of my work’s in university, but we’re rubbish at letting students fail, we all do whatever we can to pass them, rather than actually saying, you fail and you learn from it.  So, well I think failure is absolutely integral in [0:25:21] within every game you play first time, there’d be no fun in playing them.  So it’s how you could take that kind of paradigm of failure and put that into learning. 
Yeah.  Do you think there’s – you talked about that as kind of, I suppose a generic picture of playing and failure, are there any particular mechanics that are kind of inherent in games that you think are particularly important in terms of games for change or games having an impact?  So anything about the game – we’ve talked a lot around the kind of stuff that goes on around the games and clearly that’s how we experience them, is there anything about the particular mechanics of the game that can generate a certain play?
I mean I suppose this is kind of getting into gamification isn’t it, and I’m not a fan.  I mean there are certain people and I’m not a great fan of the whole points, badges, leader boards things. 
Can I ask you to articulate why?
I think the ones that interest me the most are how you balance challenge and – are you familiar with [Mlearn’s 0:26:38] work on challenge?
No. 
Right, he did [0:26:43] seminal papers in 1980 which was all about what is it, I think his paper’s called, What Makes Games Fun, and it was with kids, but one of the things he did was about his challenge and that the optimum level of challenge is a challenge that is hard and that gamers are very good at keeping us in that kind of zone, because the minute we don’t think it’s achievable we can’t bothered and if it’s too easy, we can’t be bothered.  But then that ties in with, you know, Set Me High, his flow diagram?
Yeah. 
So he’s basically, he’s summing up that diagram; so I’m interested in how games sort of keep us in flow and how – there’s a really good, in the art of, what’s called the Art of Game Design, Jesse Schell?
Yeah. 
That’s basically got a picture of the flow diagram with what looks like a wobbly line of steps going up in the middle of it, which kind of shows how games level up.  So you start with something quite easy and then it gets a bit hard, then it gets harder and harder, then you get, then you have your boss level, then it gets easier again, and sort of links that into flow.  So I think how they level up, how people manage challenge I think are very interesting, and then – I don’t know, I suppose collection is something I’m interested in, from an academic point of view, because I’m not a collector, I don’t get it at all, [0:28:15] absolutely is, and at the moment my kids are really into collecting Lego cards, and this level of interest in bits of paper I don’t understand (laughs), and I don’t understand people who collect stamps and coins, and want to do jigsaws, but it fascinates me, because it’s obviously very, very motivational for some people.  
Yeah, that process of collection and curating. 
Or completion, having something complete.  So, yeah, so collecting all your badges, that kind of motivation, or collecting your achievements, that seems to be the big one in quite a lot of games now.  
Yeah.  You mentioned gamification and not being a fan of it, could I just ask you just to articulate why you think gamification might be problematic or what might be negative about gamification that means you’re not interested in gamification?
I mean I suppose I’m lumping all gamification together.  When I say I’m not a fan of gamification, I’m not a fan of the type of gamification that says, [0:29:30] I’m going to make it more interesting by awarding points for doing it and giving people badges for doing it, and – because it [0:29:41] while it might have some level of motivation the task itself is intrinsically boring.  And that seems to be how quite a lot of gamification higher education is, and if you think about it higher education’s gamified anyway, we’ve got a leader board, it’s called, our school, we’ve got, you know, we’ve got points and they’re called, exam scores, and it’s, actually what we need to do is not look at the game, it just seems the wrong bits of games to use, the very superficial and also – there’ll be lots of people for whom you suddenly make it competitive and they’re not interested [0:30:20] it really seems to be trivialising learning, in a way that – one of the big problems to me when you start talking about play and learning in adults is people who think you’re trivialising learning, but actually I think gamification does it much more intrinsically.  It doesn’t seem to have that sort of stigma attached to it – oh hang on, I can’t hear you. 
Hello?  I am still here, can you hear me?
Yeah, good.  
No, that makes sense, that’s good thank you.  I just wanted you to articulate that kind of feeling around gamification, because it’s obviously an area that some people are very enthusiastic about and it’s good to have different perspectives on that. 
I think there are people who are using the more sophisticated gamification that goes beyond taking simple game mechanisms and then using them in other, in non-game situations.  But I think still a lot of it is still around your points, badges, leader boards’ model. 
Yeah, I think it – I suppose it also depends on how you define gamification and where you’re drawing the boundaries about what is a game mechanic and that kind of thing.  But what you’ve talked about there is really, really useful, so that’s great, thank you. 
Right, a couple more questions.  One, I just want to talk a little bit directly about, obviously you do research around video games, I just want to kind of talk about the status of the research around video games.  Do you feel that research around video games is valued?  You presumably feel it has value, because you do it, and you’re involved in it, but is it valued?
On education really, I work for a mainstream education [0:32:10] it’s seen as being a bit leftfield and niche.  I think it’s more valued in computing, but I think a lot of the work that comes out computing departments doesn’t understand the education at all, and I think this might be part of the problem, with digital games full stop, is that educators don’t understand computer scientists and vice versa.  
Yeah. 
Never mind bringing game designers into the mix.  Yeah, and actually I think in computing it sort of, education is sort of seen as a bit, oh you can’t be a proper computer scientist you’re doing education.  So I think probably wherever you go it’s [0:32:50] as a mainstream thing.  
I think because my work is now, I’m doing less on video games and more on planning, which touches more on sociology and psychology, but whether it’s any more mainstream or acceptable there I’m not sure.  I think because [0:33:10] and adult play is just seen as being a bit weird, either weird or something that’s sponsored by Durex (laughter).  
But I do think that it’s changing, because I’m doing a lit review at the moment which is looking at how – one of the things is the vocabulary that’s used around learning in higher education and there does seem, since sort of 2000, and there does seem to be a sort of, it starts off talking about game based learning and then moves to gamification and now more recent things talk about play, so I do think there is a general move towards play more [0:33:51] away from games having to be computer games.  
And that kind of idea of disciplinary focus, putting different lenses on the kind of games research that happens is interesting as well, and the idea you know, that games research comes from computing would be different again, research that comes from education is fairly kind of – 
And the thing, that games research that comes from sociology and games studies is very different. 
Yes.  
I think there’s a definite need to be interdisciplinary with it, is it interdisciplinary?
Yeah, yeah. 
And I think part of the problem is quite a lot of EU projects is they come from very much a computing slant. 
And that clearly will influence the kind of research that gets done and the kind of products that are generated I suppose as well. 
Yeah.  
We talk about, it frames it in a particular way.  
My final question I suppose, although we can talk more if you’ve got more to talk about certainly, is, just talking about the future.  You’ve hinted there at change and things moving on, what future directions do you think games, gaming, game research take, what might be the future possibilities and challenges for the kind of research that you’re doing?
I think the art is going to become quite interesting.  I think there’s going to be a kind of resurgence of Second Life-y kind of stuff.  I think with the VR, I think the personal VR and things like Google Glasses and, it just makes it so easy for people to have VR.  What worries again, in the same way as Second Life was used for people to recreate in lecture theatres, is that the technology won’t lead to any changes in pedagogy. 
Yes.  
But I think that will be an interesting space.  Again, I think mobile gaming, so – nothing seems to have, I was surprised that there’s been no new Pokeman Go, I mean I know Pokeman Go’s still around, but there’s nothing, you know that’s nearly a year ago [0:36:02].
Augmented reality as well. 
Yeah, sort of augmented geo games, I don’t know what the proper word for them is.  But something – so we had the VR and augmented reality, I think things are, have potential, but again that’s very technologically driven and you could end up with gamification, we could end up with some sort of deep play based curriculum, it’s really hard to tell where it might go.  
So I do think there is a shift, game based learning to playful learning, but I would say that, because that’s my thing (laughs) so if you take that with a pinch of salt. 
You never know, it’s your perspective, this is, so that’s important. 
I think there’s definite resurgence in non-digital games, I think – and that’s echoed in, of entertainment, non-digital games.  And I think game making, and gainful experiences, so that again the whole rise of Crystal Maze, the Escape Room, the Immersive Dining, I think in a way people are getting playfulness.  So it opens doors to thinking about learning in different ways.
Yeah that’s good, that’s interesting.  Great.  It’s hard to put it in the future obviously, but there’s kind of, those strands that are there and it’s interesting to hear you talking about them, and the possibilities for them, so thank you for that. 
Is there anything that you would like to talk about in relation to this, that I’ve kind of not managed to prompt you to talk about?
I don’t think so, I think, yeah I think I’ve probably said a lot, yes, I think I’ve probably talked quite a lot. 
Well you’ve certainly done what we would’ve wanted for the interview, so thank you very much for that, you’ve given, you’ve kind of covered a broad range of things, but I can see there’s a thread going through them, around play and around the kind of, the ideas around play.  You’ve talked a lot about the ethics; we’ve covered lots of, well we’ve covered all of the areas that I was hoping to kind of cover, so that’s great.  If we’ve managed to cover that much in about thirty minutes, that’s fantastic, thank you. 
Excellent.  Well I would be very interested in finding out, you know, when the outcomes of your research come out, or any other things that are coming out for it, it sounds really interesting. 
Oh that’s brilliant.  We’ve also, I’m just going to stop the recording now.